Rumsfeld, Bush approved Iraq torture policy
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Saturday, December 11, 2004 17:27
VIEWED: 18296
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Oh jeez, JCobb, what are you doing? You're like one of the cool, thoughtful moderate people on thsi sight, but you're kinda heading for the deep end and I'm afraid you might just go off it, if you don't come back.
This ain't no court o' law and none of us are writing news articles that have to be fact-checked. Somebody lives in the U.S., or lives in Canada and visits the U.S., and gets a feeling for the way people are there and then goes overseas and has a very different experience: "Whoa, people over here are much more [fill in the blank] than people in the U.S." There ain't nothing invalid about that.
It's called anecdotal evidence. It's the basis of the gorram scientific method, fer gosh sakes! Find what you consider a representative sample, make a hypothesis and see if it's borne out. People share such experiences online and hear what other people have to say on the subject. This process can result in a person being better informed than they were before.
Seriously, you're being all kinds of pedantic, demanding "evidence" for a personal observation. All the evidence anybody needs is their own eyes. And just because it's based solely on personal experience doesn't make it an opinion. If I saw ten people walk past my window in the last hour, it ain't an opinion, it is an observation. If all kinds of random Europeans are dazzling me with their knowledge of current events, while the folks back home all just grunted, well, that's what I observed. If you don't believe me, fine, but if you ask me for proof, I'm just gonna look at you funny.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Oh jeez, JCobb, what are you doing? You're like one of the cool, thoughtful moderate people on thsi sight, but you're kinda heading for the deep end and I'm afraid you might just go off it, if you don't come back.
This ain't no court o' law and none of us are writing news articles that have to be fact-checked. Somebody lives in the U.S., or lives in Canada and visits the U.S., and gets a feeling for the way people are there and then goes overseas and has a very different experience: "Whoa, people over here are much more [fill in the blank] than people in the U.S." There ain't nothing invalid about that.
It's called anecdotal evidence. It's the basis of the gorram scientific method, fer gosh sakes! Find what you consider a representative sample, make a hypothesis and see if it's borne out. People share such experiences online and hear what other people have to say on the subject. This process can result in a person being better informed than they were before.
Seriously, you're being all kinds of pedantic, demanding "evidence" for a personal observation. All the evidence anybody needs is their own eyes. And just because it's based solely on personal experience doesn't make it an opinion. If I saw ten people walk past my window in the last hour, it ain't an opinion, it is an observation. If all kinds of random Europeans are dazzling me with their knowledge of current events, while the folks back home all just grunted, well, that's what I observed. If you don't believe me, fine, but if you ask me for proof, I'm just gonna look at you funny.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
I have found the mark of an idiot would be one that takes blithering at face value and does not seek deeper analysis.
Its very easy to group everyone into a single group, then make sweeping generalizations based off of a few select examples. Its also easy for people to put on a smug, superior attitude, purely based off of geographical location. (I know more purely because I am from France, or Britian, or Canada, and your arguments are null and void because you happen to be located in the US.) I suppose I just got sick of several posts where certain people just brushed other people off because they were "American"(again this might not nessecarily be you SIGMANUNKI or Rue, or you Cavalier).
That really grates on me.
Plus, if there is scientific evidence proving that Americans are retarded, I would love to see it. Would make my debates with some of my fellow brethren much easier.
Anyways, glad I am not coming across as a TOTAL ass in all my posts Cavalier, I suppose thats the least I can do.
EDIT
Oh, and if it is just a personal observation, that is one thing. It is another to then take that observation and apply that everyone, or even the majority of people are that way, be it an intelligent European, or a dumbass American.
I know I wouldn't make any judgements unless I had met the majority of peoples. Maybe I am weird like that.
I don't care, I'm still free.
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JCobb:
First off that interview with the Fox "news" "journalist" was on the show sitting right in front of Jon. So, the chances for funny stuff going on is minimal. I do understand your doubting it though, as there antics on *taped* interviews can be quite humorous. But, this was not one of them. He was a guest on the show.
When you go to another country you *do* get the feeling of those that are in it. That is, if you go "off the beaten path" to the non-tourist attractions. *Which I did*. In fact when I went to Germany I stayed in my wife's apartment far from anything touristy.
I'll say at this point that I found the Europeans to be far more intelligent and I won't get into how nice they where. Because the people on the street in Germany certainly (in my experience, though the wife doesn't agree) were not nice. The only friendly people there were her family and her families friends. Joe Shmo on the street was not.
That being said, I did live in the US for some time and have visited many parts of the country. I got that same "everybody's intelligence around me is room temperature" feeling no matter where I went.
Intelligent people will always have that spark in there eye. There eyes kind of shine in a certain way. On the other hand, people who are of intelligence lacking, have a dull stare typically with there mouth open. The latter is the type of person I ran into most in the states. In fact, I ran into them with frightening frequency ie every time I went out and where every I went.
So then, when I was down in the US, if I was going to be hanging out in areas with those of people of my intellectual level, how was I completely confounded at the atrocities that surrounded me? /And I was in a university town./ Quite a sad state of affairs indeed 
I'll note at this point that there will be exceptions to the rule. After all, if that wasn't the case then I'd not be here right now, as most of the people here are Americans. ie I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-stupid. It just so happens that in my /experience/ pretty much all the Americans I have met are... well, you get the idea.
Another example. My wife was walking around wearing the sweater from the local university. So, it had University of ? on it in *big* letters right on the front. Some guy walked up to her and said, that's a great sweater, where'd you get it?
It has nothing to do with geographic location as such. But, it has everything to do with the culture in that country. And the US has a very violent culture that doesn't respect education. When I grew up I was taught that education is a must, education is to be respected and that I should go to school.
The US on the other hand doesn't care about education. eg California, when they first started the cuts to balance the budget, cut education first. There are other examples indeed, but, I won't get into that. This thread has already gone somewhat OT.
And here, 48 Nobel laureates refer to Bush's anti- science ways:
http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=
882094&tw=wn_wire_story
The letter:
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/files/2004_0621_letter.html
And news agencies that have an agenda that is so clear and obvious shouldn't be allowed to call themselves a news agency. The whole point of being a news agency is that you try to be as objective as possible. But, whenever I see something from Fox "news" it *always*, *without exception*, has the foul stench of manipulation on it. I cannot respect that in the slightest.
And my substantial information on people from other countries being more informed than those in the US is *talking to people from other countries*. My substantial information of people from other countries being more intelligent than those in the US is the same.
And when I say more intelligent and better informed, I'm not saying that they go along with what I think or that if they're a prick then they're just an idiot. I say these things because they can follo
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Okay, I just happen to disagree.
I've done my fair bit of traveling and have found idiots everywhere. I have found more American's that can put up a good discussion, (nevermind Jay Leno's Jaywalkers) then I have found Canadians, Mexicans, Germans, or English(women)men.
What was it, 90% of Britons, (or some ungodly high number) couldn't find Iraq on a map, a higher number then their American counterparts, I think the Swedes got the highest, only 70% of people there couldn't locate Iraq.
As far as education is concerned, I can't complain. I have been through the public education system, and I think I have gotten a very good, well rounded education. That might be because I made a personal decision to challenge myself, but then again, so did my classmates. Do I think that more of an emphasis should be placed on education, absolutely. Does that mean that your average Britian is brighter then your average American. I dunno, haven't seen evidence about it. I have visited Britian and Germany, and even in the area's I have visited for fun, (I would like to think I chose higher brow locales) I have not been impressed with the intelligence of the people there. Often they would have what, at first glance, seems to be a good strong grasp of world events, but after some further discussion it turned out to be nothing more then superficial polish thrown like so much rice at a wedding.
Regardless, I have not been impressed with intelligence in general.
EDIT
As far as what some scientists think, I can make up my mind on my own, thank you very much. I also am not one to think that scientists can't be as liberal or conservative as you or me. I think a mistake many people make is raising scientists to a "God" like level, (again, not nessecarily you) and then assume that they can not succumb to the same problems that you or I can.
I don't care, I'm still free.
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SignyM Whoa there Jasonzz!
Pretty soon you'll be saying that it's OK to perform elective brain surgery on ppl who don't fit into the social norm. In the FF 'verse, you'd be a blue hand for sure.. except that I don't think they'd take anyone who can be so easily manipulated!
Jasonzz: I don't know, you are the ones labeling people whether they fit in or not. If you give it a name, I am more than sure someone will come up with the medicine or a fix for it. If you are clever enough about those things or care enough about it - don't give it a name. If you believe that everyone's feelings and thinking are just and correct and really truly know that "to each their own" is the way to live, then don't make "a norm".
SignyM: Yes... but not two paragraphs down you say "The Fat, Dumb, and happy "Western cultured" people of the world's got it made, they can make themselves feel that you can just legislate all of this crap away." It seems to me that YOU are creating a "norm", or at least a "preferred". In any case you're certainly name-calling!
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SignyM: Torture is the infliction of physical harm or pain or emotional/psychic anguish. One favorite form of torture is sleep deprivation... people actually die sooner of sleep deprivation than lack of water, AND it leaves no marks! Another favorite form of torture is to go the the apparent head man of a village, grab one of his younger male grandchildren and start drowning the kid until your conditions are met. If anyone should wonder about the effectiveness of positional torture, one only needs to look at crucifixion. Of course, there's always the standard electric shock, rape, beatings and burnings. And simple household items- cordless drills, phone books, plastic bags- make excellent tools of the trade.
Jasonzz: That's a mixed bag of stuff. You all are lumping a whole bunch of stuff and calling it torture...
SignyM It's all exquisitely painful, I assure you.
Jasonzz ... I suppose a simple "nyah, nyah, nyah" taunting or the Monday morning blues is torture too. People who don't get their StarBucks in the morning are also undergoing emotional distress - yeah, those pussies are also undergoing torture...
SignyM What ARE you going on about? That I'm somehow blind to what torture is? That I have no idea how painful it can be? Only someone who has NO idea of torture would equate crucifixion with not getting their Starbucks coffee in the ayem. I THINK you're trying to sound like you "really know" and nobody else does, but you just undercut your own argument terribly.
Jasonzz The fact is, the world is filled with this stuff in various forms and shape. The Fat, Dumb, and happy "Western cultured" people of the world's got it made, they can make themselves feel that you can just legislate all of this crap away. Yeah, keep repeating that to yourselves until some real psychopath creeps up to you in a dark parking lot some where and do something....
SignyM Actually, Ive had this happen to me... twice. You're not telling me anything I don't know.
Jasonzz... It's real, it's out there, it's not going away. Call it torture, call it what you will. The soft belly of the society will always be the prey.
SignyM Again, what are you trying to say? That torture will always exist? That everyone is blind except you? That you PREFER a world in which torture is accepted because you'd like to use it yourself? Spit it out man! Tell me what you're REALLY thinking!
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SignyMThe point, Jasonzz, is that you're not about to shock me (so to speak!) but you ARE putting yourself in league with sociopaths.
Jasonnzz Sociopaths? Thanks for the diagnosis. It would have cost me thousands of dollars and countless hours laying in a couch to be called a mixed bag of nuts. Whew! Now I know...
SignyM AND, you got it for free! 
Here's the definition of sociopath: Someone who manipulates others without e
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The following is an interesting look at the "non kneejerk radical" end of the Arab media spectrums take on the Abu Garaib fiasco.......
by Steven Stalinsky.
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Responding to the Abu Ghraib controversy, several Arab journalists have noted that the actions of a handful of Americans pale in comparison to what occurs daily inside Arab prisons. This has led to articles in the Arab media calling on Arab leaders to end human-rights violations within their own prisons.
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak described Abu Ghraib as "abhorrent and sickening, and against all human values and human rights." But as Yusri Fatyan wrote in the Egyptian paper Al Arabi on
May 23: "Frankly, what happens in Egypt doesn't differ much from what happens in Iraq's prisons... So that we don't get a surprise when foreign organizations start talking about some of our police stations, like Helwan, Al Sahel, Bilqas, and others."
Another Egyptian journalist, Muhamad Ali Al Farra, wrote in the Islamist paper Al Shab: "Some Arab rulers have practiced torture on people which no one would believe, and even finishing with tortured bodies by burning them in acid, so how could such rulers condemn torture of Iraqi prisoners? Who is going to throw stones at others when his own house is made of glass?"
Saleh Bin Humaid, chairman of the Saudi Shoura Council, called the Abu Ghraib abuses "hideous scenes of human-rights violations." This, despite the fact that Saudi prisoners have almost no legal rights, and that their punishments are based on Islamic law -- including the severing of fingers and hands for stealing, and beheadings for drug-dealing.
Syrian Minister for Expatriate Affairs Buthayna Shaban, who recently returned from a trip to the U.S., wrote in Al-Sharq Al-Awsat on February 18, 2004: "The pictures that one lone soldier managed to smuggle out of the Abu Ghraib prison aroused revulsion and condemnation in the world, because of the extent of the contempt for human dignity and fundamental human rights -- particularly on the part of the forces that claimed [they had crossed] the oceans to rescue the Iraqi people from the inhumane actions [by the Saddam regime] and to bring freedom and democracy... It is the American administration's supercilious view of the Arabs and Muslims, particularly after the events of September 11, and the racist campaign against Islam and the Muslims in Europe... that leads to crimes of this kind."
Ahmad Jarallah, editor-in-chief of the Kuwaiti daily Al-Siyassa and noted critic of the Syrian regime, responded in an editorial: "Dr. Buthayna Shaban, who is 'revolted'... should be the last to express her revulsion -- because the kinds of torture carried out in the prisons of the regime of which she is a part and in whose services she acts are too numerous to count. No atrocity surpasses the kinds of torment and torture [in the Syrian regime]... We have gone overboard in our talk of the Abu Ghraib torture scandal... None has dared acknowledge that the U.S. behaved properly in uncovering [this] scandal, for having sufficient courage to apologize. It could have remained silent, or denied it -- as is the custom of some Arab regimes that torture, assassinate, bury alive, rip out fingernails, and dissolve [people] in pits of acid, and appear before the world like innocent children with angels' wings."
Other Arab journalists have recognized that U.S. actions in Iraq are not based on any sinister plans and that, while the U.S. has made mistakes, it has done more for Iraqis than any Arab state. On the liberal Arabic website Elaph.com, Syrian columnist Hayan Nayouf wrote: "After the scandal of the torture of Iraqi prisoners by American and British soldiers, the Arab media handled this affair in a way arousing ridicule, proving that the Arab media and intellectuals possess everything but objectivity, transparency, and disclosure of the truth and the facts... The American president, the president of the most powerful country in the world...
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According to this article, the biggest effect that the United States had resulted from what we did RIGHT (exposing, investigating, apologizing for torture) not because of what we did WRONG (setting the legal and reporting structure under which torture occured). By this logic, if we did even more "right" we would have an even bigger impact.
However... I'm not sure about the article's accuracy of the Mideast "street" or American nobility. And if we tried to put the assumptions into practice we may STILL not be able to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis.
Except that a soldier smuggled out photos and gave them to the media, the entire problem would probably still be going on while the "investigation" ground on interminably. And even if the torture was stopped, it would have never been admitted, much less apologized for. The administration got caught with its pants down, period, and the quoted journalists (mostly Kuwaitis and Egyptians) who make such a big deal about US honesty are so far off the mark that it throws doubt on everything else that they say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
According to this article, the biggest effect that the United States had resulted from what we did RIGHT (exposing, investigating, apologizing for torture) not because of what we did WRONG (setting the legal and reporting structure under which torture occured). By this logic, if we did even more "right" we would have an even bigger impact.
However... I'm not sure about the article's accuracy of the Mideast "street" or American nobility. And if we tried to put the assumptions into practice we may STILL not be able to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis.
Except that a soldier smuggled out photos and gave them to the media, the entire problem would probably still be going on while the "investigation" ground on interminably. And even if the torture was stopped, it would have never been admitted, much less apologized for. The administration got caught with its pants down, period, and the quoted journalists (mostly Kuwaitis and Egyptians) who make such a big deal about US honesty are so far off the mark that it throws doubt on everything else that they say.
Do you think, (in all seriousness) that we haven't done any good over in Iraq? I think the media often grabs the worst of what happens in Iraq, but rarely if ever focuses on the good. I have seen letters from soldiers with pictures of them working side by side with Iraqi's to build schools, to distrubute water and food to refugees, all sorts of marvelous and wonderful things. I think far too often the worst of things are reported and expounded upon, and it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, knowing full well that there are good people over there making a difference.
I don't care, I'm still free.
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I think the enlisted men and women are doing some good. Unfortunately, the administration screwed up a LOT starting with completely violating the Powell Doctrine and moving on to assuming how poular we'd be, grossly underestimating troop requirements, disbanding the entire Iraqi army, allowing complete breakdown of security. It could have been retrieved at many points along the way- bringing in respected moderate clerics and their militias, reforming the Iraqi regular army (not the Fedayeen) etc. Now it's at a point where it doesn't seem to matter to the Iraqis WHAT we do. A NYTimes columnist made a very prophetic statement right after our apparent victory, and it went something like- If the water doesn't flow and the electricity doesn't come on and the rain don't fall and the sun don't shine, it's all our fault (at least in the eyes if the Iraqis). I think that's where we are, and well-meaning troops just can't make up for boondoggles at the top. I'm pissed off as all hell at the administration for screwing EVERYTHING up.
I wasn't in favor of the war. Months and months before the actual invasion, everyone was telling me it was all about WMD and I kept saying it was all about the oil... and I still do. But if we're going to inavde, at least don't leave the troops hanging out to dry.
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