Real World Event Discussions

Don'tcha love their 'logic'?

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, October 30, 2009 03:04
VIEWED: 11384
PAGE 12 of 19

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 24, 2009 11:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I was very proud of myself, and in fact I still am.

Good job, bro!

Quote:

This is behavior that would be denounced as wrong or even evil by anti-capitalists.

No way! Did you exploit anyone? Did you introduce harmful ingredients into the doughnuts to extend their shelf, errr, box life, to increase your potential profits? Did you pay off school officials with a measure of your profits to ensure that no other kids could buy entire boxes of doughnuts so as to hinder your potential competition?
No?
So, you were a GOOD Capitalist! Revel in your time!

The laughing Chrisisall

GEEZER

Sunday, October 25, 2009 1:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporation

-F

Yep. Folks who believe in the cooperative system have formed cooperatives. Anybody else who wants to form a cooperative can join the Mondragon system or something similar. So should we force everyone to join a cooperative? If I have a great idea for making a much better widget, do I have to find a bunch of folk who want to work in a widget factory for a share of potential profits (or losses) to get my widget made? Shouldn't I be able to ask other folks to risk investing their capital, rather than their labor, in the process?

In the cooperative version the workers are risking investing their labor and, if their product doesn't sell, getting less of a return than they put in. In a capitalist system, the investor takes the risk and the worker knows pretty much what his compensation will be.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 25, 2009 1:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Shouldn't I be able to ask other folks to risk investing their capital, rather than their labor, in the process?

No. Becuase that's the seed of evility.
*sarcastic snark*

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Sunday, October 25, 2009 1:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

"You left out the part where we don't do the work with trowels, we hire browner people from other lands to do the work. Only they have to use their hands, because we sold the trowels to another country."

I've seen the bulldozers. I promise, I'm not making it up. They exist. They build things in my city every day.

Well, thank goodness! I take it you don't live in Honduras or Guatemala, though, where bulldozers are rather scarcer, and where so many of our goods are made, usually by hand, because that's even cheaper than automating our processes...

Quote:

"So it seems the government CAN build some desirable things, after all."

Well, I have to admit... this completely blows up the argument I never made.

--Anthony

A bit disingenuous of you - you rather strongly IMPLIED that in your post about the government giving us everything we need, and that nobody needs a Ferrari.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

GEEZER

Sunday, October 25, 2009 1:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

*sarcastic snark*

Redundant.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

ANTHONYT

Sunday, October 25, 2009 2:24 AM

Hello,

Nobody does need a Ferrari. A Ferrari is an exclusive vehicle specifically targeted to the very rich.

So there wouldn't be any Ferraris OR rich people to buy them in the described scenario.

So, I was not disingenuous at all.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

KWICKO

Sunday, October 25, 2009 2:44 AM

So only capitalism can make people rich?

ANTHONYT

Sunday, October 25, 2009 2:48 AM

Hello,

Since 'profit' was described to me as a form of 'theft' where people did not get the full value of their work, then that would seem to be the case.

Moreso since I have repeatedly been told that money needs to be forcibly redistributed from the rich to the poor. (So how can anyone be rich?)

BUT! If I misunderstand any particular, please let me know. If I can have socialism, a mansion, and a private yacht, then I may be sold.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

KWICKO

Sunday, October 25, 2009 4:06 AM

Ah, but in capitalism, you may already be sold. And bought. And re-sold. :)

Thing is, we don't have any real idea how REAL, *pure* capitalism would work, any more than we have an idea of how real, pure socialism or communism would work. Americans, when decrying socialism, tend to point to places like Sweden, and say, "Is this what you want? You want to be SWEDISH?" They tend to neglect that there are some very rich Swedes who live in some very nice houses and own yachts and expensive cars.

Also, Kim Jong Il has some very nice things, doesn't he? I mean, if your point is that socialism or communism CAN'T provide such things except for the very few, I'd counter by saying that neither can capitalism. You are really no different than the great number of people who lived in the former Soviet Union, or who now live in China or North Korea. You live your life HOPING to get enough to just get by, and maybe, MAYBE, in your wildest dreams, you dreams of getting a bit more. Some people achieve the highest rungs of power and wealth, but they tend to be very few and far between. I saw a study somewhere that claimed that the top two percent in America own more than the other 98% combined. I'm skeptical of that number, but I'd also bet that if it's off, it's not by far - probably more like 5%:95%.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

ANTHONYT

Sunday, October 25, 2009 4:48 AM

Hello,

The closest model I have to pure capitalism is Hong Kong, and... it does remarkably well.

My point was in the socialist environ depicted in my scenario, there would not be exclusive things for people of extreme wealth, because there would not be people of extreme wealth period. Not even the leaders would supposedly have such things.

And yes, I'd say that the lure of somehow, someday obtaining something luxuriant is a motivator. While most of us won't live in luxury, many of us will be able to buy a special something at some point in our lives, whatever it is, that strikes our fancy. Something that is part of a lifestyle beyond our means, but this singular element is obtainable with effort.

I don't know what your one special thing might be that may be worth working towards. I imagine most people have one.

As a representation of a pure socialist society, I have often wondered how the Next Generation Federation worked. The Picard family operated a family vineyard. I'd have loved to know the economics of that. I'd also love to have understood whether everyone got the same pay (in credits) or how pay was distributed, or how luxuries were purchased, if at all (a big ranch, a yacht, a private spaceship.)

Sadly, these elements of idealized socialism were never deemed worthy of representation. This is especially lamentable in instances where the capitalist Ferengi appear. I'd have loved to see some comparison/contrast as a tool to understanding the different systems merits and flaws.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner