Don'tcha love their 'logic'?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, October 30, 2009 03:04
VIEWED: 11384
PAGE 11 of 19
Quote:That's called feudalism. You own the land. The peasants (who by definition are landless) work the land. You own the crop. Now, if you owned the workers as well, that would be called slavery.
So if I own a cornfield, let's say...
And I hire ten workers to pick corn, let's say.
And I let each worker keep 5% of corn yield, let's say.
So the workers cumulatively get 50% of the yield, and I get 50% of the yield myself...That's not capitalism?
Quote:If I understand you correctly- Yep. You got it.
If I sell 10 shares of cornfield stock on the market, entitling each share-owner to 1/10 of the 50% yield I own, and those shares can be freely traded... That's Capitalism?
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Hello,
Now, if the ten workers take their 5% corn yield, eat 1% of it, and use the other 4% to buy houses on small plots of land... And then return next season to pick my corn again, eat 1% of it, and use the other 4% to buy cars and furnishings, and etc...
Is it still feudalism now that the 'peasants' own land?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Hello Signy,
This is partially off topic, but I thought I should mention it.
I have recently been reading an exhaustively detailed book about the Panama canal. There were two major efforts there. One was by a private French corporation, and the other was a government project that structured the work along socialist lines. (Government provided health care and transportation, standardized housing, standardized jobs, standardized wages. At some points even a standardized food supply of superior fare to what had previously been available.) Barring the government-encouraged revolution and intrigues surrounding the project, I believe this is the kind of great social work you envision for our nation. It was ultimately successful and very impressive, and it actually provided income for its workers (imported from practically every nation within reach) in excess of what they could obtain privately at home.
The book is called The Path Between The Seas, by David Mccullough, and it is a very fair appraisal of everything good and bad about the panama canal, its construction, and everything surrounding it.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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How do they exchange their corn for houses, cars and TVs? (And in such a primitive system, how are TVs and cars made anyway?) Do they use money or barter? In any case, the best approximation of the economy might be mercantilism- which implies a rather broad system of trade, and access to goods made away from the manor.
Tony, I have to get to real life. Just want to leave you with this: "capitalism" is like "human life". We THINK we know what it means... the idealized examples are bright and shining in our minds... until we start looking at it in detail. In reality there are no bright lines between life and non-life, between human and non-human, and between capitalism and mercantilism. However, just because there are no bright lines doesn't mean there aren't distinctions either. For me, I put my capitalist stake in the ground at the concept of freely exchanging ownership of the means of production.
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BTW- thanks for the book reference. Yes, that is the kind of project I envision.
And now, I REALLY have to get to the real world.
TTUL.
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Hello,
I'm not sure what is primitive exactly about the arrangement. Is it primitive because the workers keep a share of their production? Or is it because they are trading in corn? Would it make a difference if the corn was converted to gold, and they just spent the gold?
Well, it sounds like mercantilism (people free to own means of production, produce goods, and trade goods and services)is what I mistakenly attributed to capitalism.
Is the stock market it, then? Is that the defining characteristic of capitalism?
So... is mercantilism as evil as capitalism? Less so? How does it compare to your desired system of government?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I neglected to answer this:
Quote:No. If they could easily sell their land, and make money from it without working it themselves it might be capitalism, or possibly mercantilism.
Is it still feudalism now that the 'peasants' own land?
Oh gosh, I'm sorry, I post-edited again. Please don't take my posts as even worth responding to until you see the "done".
And yes, its because they're paid in corn. It's like an assembly-line worker being paid in nuts and bolts, or the meat-packer paid in cuts of meat. The "payment" is not widely accepted, uniform value, or fungible, which makes broad-scale trade (and therefore fine divisions of labor and advanced technology) impossible.
Each advance in an economic system requires so many underlying capacities ... roads and trade; currency and common language; uniform metrics of size, time and weight; technology and education... its almost impossible to posit a system for simplicity of discussion that doesn't contain ALL of the elements in a known system, and that defeats the point! (For example, what would have happened to the manorial/ feudal system if roads had been safe and passable? Would it have jump-started the economy into mercantilism, or would it have looked more like the Chinese dynastic empires?) So I find myself at times having a hard time classifying some economic propositions and situations, in which case I would hope that we could work on these together.
TTUL
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporation
-F
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Tony, I like your ability to debate, it's very impressive. But let me put it this way: I made a phaser in 1979 using materials that were worth maybe 25 cents, plus a pre-made nozzle I purchased for $10. I sold it at a convention for $50. I stated that price because I truly believed no one would pay that ridiculous price (I really wanted to keep it, it was really cool. But at 1979 dollars, that was HUGE money for a 19 year old!). I became a true Capitalist despite my real intentions.
So, IMO, Capitalism is buying (or making) for a little & selling for a lot (thank you, Lex Luthor).
Simply making "enough" profit is merely a form of barter.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Hello,
When I went to High School, they used to have fund raising events. The band would do this quite a bit. I think to go to various camps or competitions.
One of my favorite fund raisers was the Krispy Kreme (sp?) doughnut sale. They'd sell Krispy Kreme doughnuts in the morning for 25 cents each. And who doesn't like a Krispy Kreme doughnut?
As soon as I came into school in the morning, I'd buy a whole box of Krispy Kreme doughnuts. I'd spend all of my lunch money on it.
Within a very short period of time, all of the doughnuts associated with the fund raiser would be sold. And I'd be the lone jackass with a box of doughnuts that I carried around, trudging from class to class. The first few times I did this, people would laugh at me.
"Damn, bro, you gonna eat all those?"
"Yup," I'd say.
"You must be one hungry motherfucker!"
"Yup," I'd say.
"Can I have one of those?"
"Nope," I'd say.
"I'll give you a quarter!"
"Nope," I'd say.
"Come on, man!"
"Nope," I'd say.
As lunch approached, people would tend to get hungrier.
"Come on, man. You ain't gonna eat all those!"
"Sure will," I'd say.
"Just sell me one."
"Nope," I'd say.
"I'll give you fifty cents!"
"Sold," I'd say.
And I'd say it again and again and again.
Every day at lunch I ate a Krispy Kreme doughnut, a slice of pizza, and I went home with almost as much money as I started with, even after eating my fill.
This was my primary moneymaking scheme in High School, before I got a job. I was very proud of myself, and in fact I still am.
This is behavior that would be denounced as wrong or even evil by anti-capitalists. I bought a commodity when it was poorly valued, and sold it when it was valued highly. I made a profit based on no labor whatsoever (other than carrying around a box) simply by investing capital into an asset and re-selling it at an opportune moment.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporation
-F
Hello,
I have read this article before, but I feel there is a great deal I do not understand about the Mondragon Cooperative, or cooperatives in general.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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