Real World Event Discussions

Don'tcha love their 'logic'?

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, October 30, 2009 03:04
VIEWED: 11384
PAGE 10 of 19

SIGNYM

Saturday, October 24, 2009 3:47 PM

Chris- Indeed!

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 24, 2009 3:49 PM

*At fair market vaule, of course.

KWICKO

Saturday, October 24, 2009 4:06 PM

Wow. Late getting back to this one, but it looks like it's gone off on a tangent. Again.

Quote:

Anthony - Well, then they'd just do something else.

And sadly, that's about as far as things seem to get thought through, especially when it comes to things like outsourcing jobs from this country. You left out the part where we don't do the work with trowels, we hire browner people from other lands to do the work. Only they have to use their hands, because we sold the trowels to another country.

Oh, and Anthony? We, ummmmm... don't build Ferraris in this country. Those come from a crazy far-off semi-socialist place called "Italy", where Ferrari was long owned and controlled by - get this - FIAT, the GOVERNMENT-owned automaker. They also own Maserati and Alfa Romeo. We really don't build anything like a Ferrari here. We build the Corvette. Or rather, the government-run General Motors builds it.

So it seems the government CAN build some desirable things, after all.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

ANTHONYT

Saturday, October 24, 2009 4:07 PM

Main Entry: cap·i·tal·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈka-pə-tə-ˌliz-əm, ˈkap-tə-, British also kə-ˈpi-tə-\
Function: noun
Date: 1877
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

Hello,

There's Capitalism.

It has existed ever since people owned things and started trading them to one another. (Although the word itself appears to date only from 1877. I suspect they called it 'trade' before then.)

If I own a smithee, a farm, a saw, or a hammer, then I own the means to production.

If I have a lemon tree and make lemonade for sale. If I make *anything* that belongs to me and trade it to someone else for something I want, I would seem to qualify as a capitalist.

If Bert across the street has a lemon tree and starts selling lemonade, then we have competition in the market.

Sally down the road is selling honey from a beehive in her back yard. I trade some lemonade for her honey and put her honey in my lemonade. Now my lemonade tastes better than Bert's lemonade. I sell more lemonade than Bert. Innovation, sparked by competition. Sweetened lemonade is born.

Bert can't keep up with my lemonade sales, and he's stuck with his lemon tree as a resource. Bert discovers that he can add lemon to soap. Kelly, who lives one block over, sells soap. Bert enters into a partnership with Kelly and makes lemon-fresh scented soap. They split the profits. More innovation, sparked by competition. Lemon-scented soap is born.

There are other forms of competition. Like warfare. I prefer free market competition.

Am I missing something here?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

ANTHONYT

Saturday, October 24, 2009 4:15 PM

Hello,

"You left out the part where we don't do the work with trowels, we hire browner people from other lands to do the work. Only they have to use their hands, because we sold the trowels to another country."

I've seen the bulldozers. I promise, I'm not making it up. They exist. They build things in my city every day.

"So it seems the government CAN build some desirable things, after all."

Well, I have to admit... this completely blows up the argument I never made.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

SIGNYM

Saturday, October 24, 2009 4:25 PM

Quote:
Capitalism is an economic and social system in which the means of production (also known as capital) are privately controlled; labor, goods and capital are traded in a market; profits are distributed to owners or invested in technologies and industries; and wages are paid to labor. However, since prior economic systems featured all these elements to some degree, capitalism might differentiate itself by the pervasiveness of wage labor in the interdependent social class context of nonlabor income derived from property not intended for the owner's (or employer's) active personal use

One defines by what is unique, differentiated, newly developed, not by what is common and extant.

You made the logical mistake of saying that elephants are mammals, all mammals are elephants. Labor, exchange, competition, and cooperation in the realm of production is called an "economy". If you detect snark, its' bc its there.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, October 24, 2009 4:30 PM

Hello,

So in your definition, it's only capitalism if I make money without sweating for it? By using something I own, or some asset I've invested in, to provide income for me?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

ANTHONYT

Saturday, October 24, 2009 4:38 PM

Hello Signy,

I seem to make the continual mistake of responding to you right away, when apparently you like to make several edits and additions to your posts. (And occasionally chastise people for not reading your post. Which post? The first, second, or third version?!)

Is there some way you can designate when you've actually finished a post. I'd hate to miss out on the value-added snark, for instance.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

SIGNYM

Saturday, October 24, 2009 4:42 PM

Exactly. Capitalism is uniquely characterized by wealth uncoupled from labor: ie. interest, stock sales, dividends etc. AND the ability to freely exchange that ownership.

Mercantilism, feudalism, slavery, primitivism... had various features ... sometimes MANY features... of capitalism, including production, savings, trade, competition, innovation, ownership, markets, currency, and banking. Some systems, like slavery and feudalism, enshrined the appropriation of product through land ownership. But until an actual stock market developed it would be hard to say that these were "capitalism" per se.
-------------

Yes, I tend to edit online.
Sorry about that.
I'll end my finished posts with "done".
How's that?
------

Done.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, October 24, 2009 4:47 PM

Hello,

So if I own a cornfield, let's say...

And I hire ten workers to pick corn, let's say.

And I let each worker keep 5% of corn yield, let's say.

So the workers cumulatively get 50% of the yield, and I get 50% of the yield myself...

That's not capitalism?

But!

If I sell 10 shares of cornfield stock on the market, entitling each share-owner to 1/10 of the 50% yield I own, and those shares can be freely traded...

That's Capitalism?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner