Don'tcha love their 'logic'?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, October 30, 2009 03:04
VIEWED: 11384
PAGE 9 of 19
Quote:Because you need a planet full of borderline-poverty peeps to buy goods. Zero employment = zero sales = economy collapsing in on itself.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Why don't we have 5 billion people out of work (excluding children under 10) and SOME people really, really well-paid?
Did I get that right?
The laughing Chrisisall
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Where I used to work, they were computerizing every facet or store ops with the ultimate goal of paying everyone there minimum wage (Or not too much above) & cutting staff seeing as the computer would actually be the manager of the place. LOL, six years after initiating it, it still hasn't worked out that way, because the plan was sold to upper management in much the same way as SDI was sold to Reagan; a nice paper fantasy. An expensive fantasy though. So expense has remained constant thanks to staff reduction, but customer service during heavy traffic times is laughable.
I don't miss that mess at all.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Hello,
My God... you mean my understanding was correct? My scenario was correct? I am actually properly understanding your point of view?
Wow.
I'd find it odd to live in a world without innovation, where everyone got what the committee thought they needed, and no one could strive to excel and improve their situation beyond their neighbors.
I mean, I'm a pretty lazy guy, and I lack ambition, but I've always felt strongly that the constant drive to improve, innovate, and increase efficiency made America great. In other words, that a nation of people satisfied with less would necessarily be less successful.
Signyland sounds like a stagnant, backwards society. Where people are not slaves to corporations... but rather to 'the system.' And there's no alternative.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"provide a minimum income to everyone whether or not they work"
Hello,
But then some people would become professional do-nothings, wouldn't they?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:No, you understand CHINA's view of things. I said that I don't hold to China's solution to the problem of unemployment.
My God... you mean my understanding was correct? My scenario was correct? I am actually properly understanding your point of view?... Signyland sounds like a stagnant, backwards society. Where people are not slaves to corporations... but rather to 'the system.' And there's no alternative.
Quote:Somehow, Tony, all of the great advances of the world: language, writing, fire, agriculture, science, the theory of relativity... were made WITHOUT capitalism. Innovation, like the desire for survival activity, is an inbuilt motivation. Maybe a few thousand generations hence that is something we'll have to worry about but... we've got bigger problems right now.
I'd find it odd to live in a world without innovation, where everyone got what the committee thought they needed, and no one could strive to excel and improve their situation beyond their neighbors.
Quote:There is always that risk. But most people are psychologically-motivated to spend about 20-25 hours a week doing something productive, and anything less than that causes anxiety in most people.
But then some people would become professional do-nothings, wouldn't they?
So IMHO the best answer is not to provide make-work (like China does) or to "only" redistribute income (like the EU does) or even worker cooperatives (which distribute decision-making power as well as money). A large part of the solution should be massive public works programs.
Why???
Because we are facing MASSIVE problems - deforestation, soil loss, global warming, trashy oceans, overpopulation, disease, ignorance, water shortages- which capitalism is completely unmotivated to deal with because there is no profit in it. There is all the room in the world for innovation, for cooperation and fellow-feeling mixed with healthy competition, when dealing with problems of such massive scope. All it needs is to be liberally watered with money.
And now, time for ME to be productive. I'm on a tight schedule this weekend and next, so this will be my last post for today - unless something pops up which is really interesting and can be answered in one sentence!
Cheers.
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Hello Signy,
"No, you understand CHINA's view of things. I said that I don't hold to China's solution to the problem of unemployment."
Well, to be fair, when I started writing my response your post seemed to be a degree or two smaller.
"Somehow, Tony, all of the great advances of the world: language, writing, fire, agriculture, science, the theory of relativity... were made WITHOUT capitalism."
The greatest advances in Agriculture and science have been motivated precisely by capital-acquisition. Hard to argue capitalism played no part. The competition inherent in capital-acquiring endeavors DOES breed innovation, and I think denying that is odd.
Of course, some of our greatest advances in architecture were enabled by despots hoarding 95% of the world's wealth. Kings in Europe, Egypt, and India, for instance.
As for capitalism being unmotivated to solve problems... that seems to be another way of saying people are unmotivated to solve problems. Capitalism will sell you whatever you want to buy. If you want to buy a green Earth, then that's what they'll sell you.
The problem is that people are only now beginning to care. And so you are just now seeing companies beginning to care. (So that they can sell you what you want to buy.) If there had been a big demand for electric cars in the 80's when gas was a buck a gallon, they'd have been selling electrics instead of gas guzzlers.
As for massive public works programs, I'm all for it. So let the government think of something we all need, float bonds, and start building. I'll lend the government some of my money if it's for a good cause.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:Capitalism did not exist at the dawn of humanity. What capitalism is is the ability to make money simply by OWNING something. Back then, they didn't have investors and stock options and absentee landlords. And the means of production- land and simple tools- were available everyone.
The greatest advances in Agriculture and science have been motivated precisely by capital-acquisition.
Quote:Not true. People care, people innovate, people work, WITHOUT capitalism. Somehow, you equate capitalism with ALL forms of production, with anyone who wants to do things better, wants to make more stuff, or want to trade with others. THAT IS NOT CAPITALISM. Capitalism is the ability to obtain more wealth simply by OWNING something, without putting ANY work into it whatsoever, AND the ability to freely exchange that ownership for another. (That's what differentiates feudalism from capitalism. A nobleman might "own" the grain produced by the peasants on "his" land, but he could not freely sell his ownership to someone else and buy another plot of land elsewhere.)
[n]As for capitalism being unmotivated to solve problems... that seems to be another way of saying people are unmotivated to solve problems.
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Hello,
Putting a seed into the ground and making fire was certainly not motivated by Capitalism...
And if no one wanted to acquire wealth, and if there was no competition, I suspect that's where we'd still all be.
The Gods Must be Crazy.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:Everyone wants stuff, and most people are capable and motivated to make it. The desire to acquire stuff is not what defines capitalism.
And if no one wanted to acquire wealth, and if there was no competition, I suspect that's where we'd still all be.
That is part of our survival heritage from time immemorial. Neither do competition and innovation. Neither do loans. Or banks. Or currency. Or trade. They predate capitalism by millenia. There are only so many times I can repeat these concepts. Have they gotten through yet? You ascribe to "capitalism" all sorts of wonderful things that pre-existed, and that have NOTHING to do with its essential definition. If you could just, please, disentangle all of those lovely thoughts and focus on capitalism ... which is narrowly defined... we would reach common understanding.
Capitalism is the ability to gain greater wealth SIMPLY through ownership of the means of production- without adding any work at all to the equation- and the ability to freely exchange that ownership.
Quote:You can't "buy" a green earth any more than you can "buy" happiness and love. The problems at-hand cannot be all solved by new products. Some of it- like reforestation- simply requires work, which companies are not about to pay for. We have to MAKE a green earth.
The problem is that people are only now beginning to care. And so you are just now seeing companies beginning to care. (So that they can sell you what you want to buy.) If there had been a big demand for electric cars in the 80's when gas was a buck a gallon, they'd have been selling electrics instead of gas guzzlers... If you want to buy a green Earth, then that's what they'll sell you.
BTW- as my last comment: I do not include grand architecture as innovation. IMHO temples, armories, palaces, pyramids and the like are symptoms of a parasitic hierarchy.
Road-building, irrigation, sewage systems OTOH are innovation.
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Quote:It is also the ability to buy govenmental favours and justice.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Capitalism is the ability to gain greater wealth SIMPLY through ownership of the means of production, and the ability to freely exchange that ownership.
The laughing Chrisisall
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