Islam in Europe
POSTED BY: FutureMrsFIllion
UPDATED: Saturday, November 15, 2025 22:41
VIEWED: 7826
PAGE 4 of 7
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
That's not so much a shade of gray, as another right butting up against the first.
The owners of the venue have the right to eject anyone who is not contributing to the atmosphere they want to maintain.
And the ejected individual may have a right to a refund for services promised, unless the contract stipulates otherwise.
What I don't think anyone should have is the right to not be offended. Because a world with such laws would be a world more restrictive than a corset.
--Anthony
So if this happened in a public setting - a city park - then the kids/parents would just be out of luck?
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Hello,
Not in our world, sadly. Public cursing would probably get you hauled in for disorderly conduct.
But ideally? Yeah. You could curse in a park.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I have never liked hate laws. They seem to be laws which attempt to divine and punish the content of people's minds and hearts. It's a bit too Orwellian for me.
Hate Speech is just speech you don't care for, in my opinion.
Hateful graffiti is just defacement of property.
Race motivated murder is, really, murder, which is sufficiant cause to put someone away.
It's not punishing the content of people's minds and hearts, because we can't see into those. It's the consequences of acting on those contents that matters.
Me, I take the view that hate crimes are essentially terrorism. If I kill a man because he's gay, it sends a message to all gay people that they are in danger because of who they love. If I write "Death to the Jews" on the side of a building, that fact that it's graffiti is secondary to the message that Jewish people should fear for their lives. (And it doesn't matter if my intentions for the graffiti were as a joke or whatever, because regardless of the (usually unknown) intentions of the vandalist, it still has the same effect as if a Neo-Nazi did it.) If I crash a plane into a building because the people inside are mostly Americans, I send a message that Americans are should be afraid for their lives.
Now, if you want to debate the implementation and eforcement of hate laws, that's a seperate issue.
I have to go to class, I'll come back to this later.
A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire
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Hello,
Here again, we see something disturbing to me.
People prosecuted for the 'message' they are sending.
I do not care to prosecute people for their 'messages.'
I care to prosecute them for their crimes.
I do not want 'messages' to become crimes.
Bad idea, to my mind.
The graffitti, murder, and mass murder are crimes already.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
If I crash a plane into a building because the people inside are mostly Americans, I send a message that Americans are should be afraid for their lives.
Actually, if you believe the official story, I think that message was supposed to be "stop helping Isreal" but something was kind of lost in translation.
Extreme actions taken in the name of policy or ideology (such as racism/creedism/sexism/homophobia etc.) are stupid as hell and unconscionable no matter who's doing them.
I think that we should be careful about saying Muslims are impossible to negotiate with, and that the culture and every member of the religion is an untrustworthy blood thirsty ticking time bomb. My Muslim friend is one of the sweetest, most friendly girls you'd ever meet, and aside from wearing a head scarf and a slight accent, you'd never know she was from Iraq. She likes American music and Japanese Anime, and she'd never hurt anyone. The Quran actually doesn't support Muslim terrorist activities: rather, Mullah and Ayatollahs are corrupting the texts to teach mostly illiterate recruits violent propaganda.
Hate crime is defined in the United States ONLY as a motive that can warrant a harsher penalty. Kind of the difference between battery and attempted murder. It is not, as far as I'm aware, a charge in of itself. As such, it can not be construed as thought crime.
Let's look at an example in pop culture. When Mel Gibson was arrested for drunk driving and he went off on a spiel about Jews, was it declared a hate crime?
No. Because the crime he was arrested for was not motivated by his biases/hatred. Now, Mel Gibson very likely has some VERY good attorneys, but I think also that in that particular case, clearly his free speech was not impinged upon, nor was he arrested for anything protected by the first amendment.
However, this is why we have to be careful about the definition of hate crime. It must only be allowed as a motive, attached to an actual crime. People should be allowed to say things that society could potentially construe as offensive, so long as no crime is committed.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
Not in our world, sadly. Public cursing would probably get you hauled in for disorderly conduct.
But ideally? Yeah. You could curse in a park.
You say "curse" like we're talking about "shit" or "fuck."
You've obviously never been verbally abused or harassed or targeted by hate. Besides, really? You'd lobby for the right to offend people in public?
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Hello,
I spent years of my life enduring hateful harassment.
And yeah, I would lobby to protect the rights of anyone who calls me a Spic, Rafter, Rower, Floater, Marielito, Cube, Fob, or Island Beaner.
I would also lobby to protect the rights of anyone who calls me a cracker, as I have also often been referred.
Essentially, I would lobby to protect the rights of anyone. Because I consider them rights.
--Anthony
P.S. Do not confuse 'lobby to protect the rights of' with 'silently accept the actions of.' I do everything I can to encourage civil discourse.
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I am with Anthony on this, who's basically stating my viewpoint without need for my input here.
But this needs comment.
Bytemite
Quote:
The Quran actually doesn't support Muslim terrorist activities: rather, Mullah and Ayatollahs are corrupting the texts to teach mostly illiterate recruits violent propaganda.
Oh yes, the Quran has some very strong words about such conduct, harming noncombatants, women, children, taking prisoners, etc - provided one has actually READ it instead of takin some Ayatollahs word for it, which we have little room to speak of since the Bible has some strong words of similar variety in Psalms and the NT as well.
Me, I ain't of either faith - but I *do* discuss it with Muslim folk I know, most of whom moved here to get away from that crap, and feel a bit miffed that folks associate em with it just cause of their nationality - if anything, they hate the radicals worse than we do cause they came to a foreign country where they're not much liked in order to be away from it - so consider that when you see someone of obvious middle eastern descent over here, yes ?
And that's one reason RAWA promotes literacy, cause despite their lack of respect for women, having your wife or sister call you out on your behavior with Gods Word is a hard thing to to shrug off for someone who is devout - it's one hell of a crowbar to influence behavior, believe it.
And consider this - see if you can tell me WHO said this one ?
"Do not follow the multitude in doing a wrong."
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Besides, really? You'd lobby for the right to offend people in public?
I would.
Hell, I find folks chattering on a cellphone annoying and offensive.
I find Salvation Army Santas and them hell-spawned bells EXTREMELY offensive...
Not to mention various profanity and ephithets, which having driven a cab I've certainly heard quite a share of...
But I would never seek to remove another persons ability to offend me, NEVER.
That way lies tyranny.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
P.S. "Freedom of speech is one thing, but vulgar taunting and hateful threats are another."
No. It's the same thing. I have no problem with someone holding a sign that says, "All Americans Deserve to Die" just so long as I can hold up a sign countering it. Freedom of Speech is all Speech, no matter how it personally offends you.
Actually, that's not quite true. There's a difference between "vulgar" speech and "hateful threats".
In general, though, I tend to agree. Speech that is offensive isn't automatically grounds for legal action. Hell, I offend people every single day, just by not believing in their stupid gods, and for being unapologetic about it.
Mike
Let the wild rumpus start!
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