Firefly Feminism. 'Pedestalled?'

POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Thursday, January 21, 2010 15:24
VIEWED: 9131
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ASARIAN

Monday, October 19, 2009 12:15 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Or, if not, is there something in Kaylee's past that explains her overreaction? Kaylee seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim. Where might that come from?

In earnest, I don't read "a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim" from Kaylee at all. Way I see it, Kaylee is perfectly happy in her 'simple' life. Her life is organized in pretty much the same manner as, say, her attitude towards sex: uncomplicated, devoid of shame or intrigue. And she likes it that way; it is her way, even.

Kaylee's first reaction to meeting Simon is perfectly understandable, without having to resort to inferiority complexes. Here she is, young girl of the Rim, meeting a high-class Doctor. 'Naturally' he makes her heart tick faster, but not because she's feeling inferior to the high social circles he moves in. I would even go so far as to say she cares not one iota for that stuff (as evinced, for example, in her perfectly unstrained relationship with Inara). Rather, she's 'flattered' by the idea -- for lack of a better term -- that she, a simple girl, could be with a Doctor. Simple as that. She's never aspired a life of social politics (as we saw at the Tam residence), or ever felt sad or inferior for not going to the D'arbanville's Ball (except, in the most general sense, that as a girl she's flattered when a guy takes her to a ball; see Shindig). Speaking of Shindig, it's very clear that the way of those high-society girls is not just entirely foreign to her, in the sense being unfamiliar to it, but is also wholly contrary to her entire soul make-up. It's simply not who she is, wants to be, or ever felt inferior over not being.

I think Kaylee is so hurt, in The Message, because -- whilst she never had really aspiration to hooking a Doctor or some such -- having one nearby who actually (potentially) shows some interest in her nonetheless made her feel all manner of special. And along comes Simon, dashing that illusion in the crudest form possble, telling her he's kinda interested in her because, well, she's pretty much the only girl around. Could he possibly have been more insensitive? I don't even think she overreacted.

Anyway, those are my $0.02

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ASARIAN

Monday, October 19, 2009 12:58 PM

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Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Oh, and to get back on the topic, bytamite brought up Book which was a good point; Book's checkered past aside, we have him and Wash as to main (male) characters that, as far as I can recall, are virtually faultless. Are they pedestalled? and if so, you figure that's why Joss killed them off? ;)

Not to be too contrary, LOL, but I think Firefly is actually the exception to Joss pedestalling (can you really use that as a verb?) the women. Or any of the cast, really. Mal ain't the plucky hero, for one. And we know Joss purposely didn't set him up like one, either. Nor do I see Inara as pedestalled. Her high social status, after a fashion, only serves to deconstruct said high society. River is awesome, of course. But pedestalled? I don't see it. And Book? His murky past pretty much precludes him from pedestallation (is that a word?). Jayne is right out. Wash, he's a likeable guy, and often the ship's walking voice of moral reason (shared with Book); but pedestallable (I can keep this up a while, honestly) for it? Nah. And Zoe? Proud warrior woman, rather withdrawn into herself for the most part (and her life with Wash). She has few overt flaws, but I don't think Joss set her up as pedestal material, really. And sweet Kaylee? If there's any pedestallization (see?) going on, then probably only in my own head, as I so deeply admire the way she is (to the point where I often quietly elevate her Way to a higher manner of being). Not entirely sure Joss meant for that, though.

Only exception, really, would have to be Simon, in my book. Noble as a grape. He gave up everything for River. He symbolizes love in its purest form (not based on making love, for a change). If anyone deserves a pedestal, it's Simon really. Instead, he got a hamster. Such is life.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Monday, October 19, 2009 1:30 PM

Wholeheartedly agree with you about Simon. In spite of his social awkwardness, and a smidge of arrogance, he is practically a saint, in the authentic sense. His forgiveness of Jayne in "Trash" was one of the most profound things I've seen from a TV character.

BYTEMITE

Monday, October 19, 2009 2:01 PM

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In earnest, I don't read "a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim" from Kaylee at all. Way I see it, Kaylee is perfectly happy in her 'simple' life. Her life is organized in pretty much the same manner as, say, her attitude towards sex: uncomplicated, devoid of shame or intrigue. And she likes it that way; it is her way, even.

Kaylee's first reaction to meeting Simon is perfectly understandable, without having to resort to inferiority complexes. Here she is, young girl of the Rim, meeting a high-class Doctor. 'Naturally' he makes her heart tick faster, but not because she's feeling inferior to the high social circles he moves in. I would even go so far as to say she cares not one iota for that stuff (as evinced, for example, in her perfectly unstrained relationship with Inara). Rather, she's 'flattered' by the idea -- for lack of a better term -- that she, a simple girl, could be with a Doctor. Simple as that. She's never aspired a life of social politics (as we saw at the Tam residence), or ever felt sad or inferior for not going to the D'arbanville's Ball (except, in the most general sense, that as a girl she's flattered when a guy takes her to a ball; see Shindig). Speaking of Shindig, it's very clear that the way of those high-society girls is not just entirely foreign to her, in the sense being unfamiliar to it, but is also wholly contrary to her entire soul make-up. It's simply not who she is, wants to be, or ever felt inferior over not being.

I'm going to have to respond here with a Nuh-uh!

Why does Kaylee want the layered cake dress so much? Why is she hurt by the girls who correctly notice that she doesn't fit in at the ball and belittle her social status? It IS foreign to her, because she wouldn't ever put someone down according to status, but that doesn't mean that when it was targetted at her, it didn't sting, and that she didn't want to make friends and feel like she belonged. She wasn't expecting them to behave that way, and had no way of knowing that such cattiness exists. The sum of her experience with Core World elite up to then were Inara and Simon; one is her sex and fashion guru/sometimes hairdresser, one she has a crush on, and both have sort of LEFT that high society to travel on Serenity.

The rest of the ball after that, for Kaylee, is about reaffirming her own comfortable place in the verse through talking about mechanics with the men, who are willing to respect her skills. And once she feels secure again, back on Serenity what does she do? She gets a music download off the Cortex of the song they were playing at the party, and hangs her dress up in her room just so she can look at it.

Twice through the course of the series, Kaylee becomes upset with Simon for implying that she has a low social status, the one time in Safe and the other time in The Message.

My impression of Kaylee is that she has a romantic ideal about Core-World high society, ladies, and gentlemen. Simon Tam, being both Core-World and formerly of high society, about her age, handsome, and polite, fits her profile for an ideal romantic relationship. The only problem is, he doesn't always live up to the image she has, and his niceness and politeness actually get in the way, because it makes him awkward around Kaylee, who is direct and forward.

I am NOT saying she's interested in high society because of a mercenary desire to move upwards, but rather because she thinks "Aw, it's so shiny! *sigh* *heart*."

Now, maybe an actual inferiority complex is an exaggeration, because I think most times, I would agree with you that Kaylee likes who she is and what she does and her life as a spacer. But she's very concerned about making a good impression on Simon, and I think that's why she can become so defensive at times. Remember when Jayne makes a joke at the table about Kaylee in the pilot episode? The comment really isn't far off from something Kaylee HERSELF might normally say, but she acts ashamed and embarrassed, BECAUSE Simon is there to hear it.

KPO

Monday, October 19, 2009 2:55 PM

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Oh, and to get back on the topic, bytamite brought up Book which was a good point; Book's checkered past aside, we have him and Wash as to main (male) characters that, as far as I can recall, are virtually faultless. Are they pedestalled?

I think in this discussion we are still to make clear what it means to pedestal somebody. For them to be or act noble? People can be noble. There are noble and ignoble male and female characters in firefly, I don't think there is anything to look at here.

Two arguments for women in firefly being pedestalled, in different ways:

1. All the women on ship are extraordinary specimens of female, in some way - imbued with remarkable skills and talents. Not ordinary women, but ordinary women with special talents. So are their achievements and their character strength 'a triumph of female strength', or a triumph of special talents?

2. The women in firefly when they get into arguments with the men, it is always the man's fault (or at least portrayed that way, even when it isn't). Is this true to reality, of male/female interactions and relationships?

Heads should roll

KPO

Monday, October 19, 2009 3:07 PM

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but portraying a young woman like Kaylee acting in an immature fashion, as she does, is terrifically realistic.

True, and I guess there was some representation of this, in Kaylee's sulkiness, calling Simon a robot for wanting to perform an autopsy.

I still think she over-reacts, and does wrong to Simon (after his clumsy wronging of her), and this is never commented upon, as if it is perfectly normal and ok. And not just in this one example, a few times throughout the series I think Kaylee over-reacts but the in-story commentary (a different female character swooping by and delivering a glare) is very one-sided against Simon.

Heads should roll

BYTEMITE

Monday, October 19, 2009 3:26 PM

I know one of the scenes you're talking about... I can't remember, in Safe, does Inara glare at Simon? I know she gives him a look, I always interpreted it as disapproving, but now, as I think of it, I'm having trouble picturing it.

Time for research!

I like this site, since I haven't had my DVDs for about 6 months now.

http://disparue.org/gallery/firefly/

Yeah, does look like kind of a glare. Sometimes Morena pulls off these kind of inscrutable looks where Inara is hiding her reaction out of politeness, and I wanted to make sure.

Now, in Jaynestown, it's not so much a glare, but yes, it's also an unfriendly reaction.

Here's a question. Yes, Kaylee overreacts, but what Simon says in the three cases I can think of are both somewhat hurtful, if not intentional. Clearly they were hurtful enough to not roll off Kaylee, so what WOULD be the proper way to act hurt?

We also need to get to Inara at some point, because Mal makes more mistakes than anyone, as I noted before, and Inara often points them out. Also: the whoring argument.

And River, the Ophelia/Cassandra, plus ass-kicker.

KPO

Monday, October 19, 2009 10:14 PM

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Yes, Kaylee overreacts, but what Simon says in the three cases I can think of are both somewhat hurtful, if not intentional. Clearly they were hurtful enough to not roll off Kaylee, so what WOULD be the proper way to act hurt?

There are more mature ways of reacting to Simon's careless faux-paux - constructive ways, that may make Simon understand her better, and their relationship run smoother... but then where would be the conflict that the writer wants, to keep the viewer interested (the whole 'on/off' 'will they won't they?' thing)?

The question for the writer is how to generate conflict between the two characters in a way where you still sympathise with both of them. I'm saying that a couple of times Joss and his writers didn't quite manage this, because in the end Kaylee acts out of character with her not-quite-justified, slightly hysterical reaction - that that was the only way that the writers managed to achieve the necessary level of bust-up.

Heads should roll

ASARIAN

Tuesday, October 20, 2009 7:51 AM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm going to have to respond here with a Nuh-uh!

And I'll raise your counter with an Yuh-huh! :) Kinda.

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Why does Kaylee want the layered cake dress so much?

Because, for all the tomboy mechanic Kaylee is, at heart she's very romantic (look at the lovey-dovey nameplate on her bunk, for instance)

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Why is she hurt by the girls who correctly notice that she doesn't fit in at the ball and belittle her social status?

Because they treat her as inferior. Which is not the same as feeling, of her own self, inferior.

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It IS foreign to her, because she wouldn't ever put someone down according to status, but that doesn't mean that when it was targetted at her, it didn't sting...

Of course it stang! Ain't no sane person in the 'Verse that likes to be treated as inferior. And especially since Kaylee so didn't see it coming, it hurt all the more.

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... and that she didn't want to make friends and feel like she belonged.

That's a two-edged truth: yes, it's in Kaylee's natural disposition to make friends (preferably with everyone).

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... The rest of the ball after that, for Kaylee, is about reaffirming her own comfortable place in the verse through talking about mechanics with the men, who are willing to respect her skills.

Precisely! While overall wanting to make friends, she's not particularly bent on getting close to Banning and her catty gang. Or any other group of high-society folks she could hobnob with, for that matter. Instead, she does exactly as you say: she immediately reverts to being just herself, talking shop with the men.

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And once she feels secure again, back on Serenity what does she do? She gets a music download off the Cortex of the song they were playing at the party, and hangs her dress up in her room just so she can look at it.

I think that's just the Cinderella-part in Kaylee. :) What young girl does not dream of being invited to a ball, wearing a beautiful dress? (instead of her usual mechanic 'rags') Had Kaylee had any real interest in getting in with high-society, she would have considered the evening a failure. Yet, far as Kaylee is concerned, she had a good time (despite an unpleasant start). Mal cheated Badger out of good money to buy her that frippery. And even though she knows he said he just did so just so she could make him look respectable, to Kaylee this matters none: she realizes he did it half-way (if not all the way) to apologize to her for brushing her off so rudely before. She also got to question the buffet table, and people did like her at the ball: folks that matter to her (like the young men who listened to her talk about how extenders ain't braced on the eighty-oh-four's and such, and the older guy who put Banning in her place). It's only natural she wants the good feel' to linger for a bit, when back on Serenity.

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I am NOT saying she's interested in high society because of a mercenary desire to move upwards, but rather because she thinks "Aw, it's so shiny! *sigh* *heart*."

That's something I completely agree with.

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Now, maybe an actual inferiority complex is an exaggeration, because I think most times, I would agree with you that Kaylee likes who she is and what she does and her life as a spacer. But she's very concerned about making a good impression on Simon...

Yes, and I'm beginning to see where you're coming from with the inferiority complex. I think she definitely feels inadequate around Simon; or, at least, inadequate when it comes to matters of higher etiquette that she thinks are what will impress Simon. The gift-shop in Safe is a good example. Both Simon and Inara pull up their noses at the junk; but Kaylee looks at a wooden swan and says it looks like it was made with, you know... longing. Obviously, she's out of her element when it comes to the finer arts; and she

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:15 PM

I like your Cinderella analogy, I think that's a better way to describe it.

But inadequacy versus inferiority. I could see it both ways, but I still do lean towards inferiority. When I think inadequate, I think of "not having anything /unable to offer anything." Whereas inferiority is a question of worth.

I think, in Objects in Space, when Kaylee tells the crew about River shooting the guards on Niska's Skyplex, and the way when she tries to talk to Simon after and seems guilty, that's a hint of Kaylee feeling inferior. And in a few other places, best one I can think of is in the comic book Better Days, Kaylee laments that Simon doesn't even seem to look at her, "like she's invisible or something." Feeling small or invisible sounds like inferiority to me.

Kayleee probably has always felt noticed by Inara, and so even though in some ways Kaylee looks up to Inara, she hasn't felt a negative sense of inferiority. But with Simon, obviously, it's different, and I think it does bring out some sort of uncertainty and self-doubt in Kaylee, something that I think may have been there all along, and possibly has some basis in her past.

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