Firefly Feminism. 'Pedestalled?'

POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Thursday, January 21, 2010 15:24
VIEWED: 9131
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KPO

Monday, October 19, 2009 1:42 AM

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until in him mind, young girls are super-beings. And he's not far wrong, is he? All the world falls at the feet of beautiful 18 or 20 year-olds, yes?

Haha. All right, he's in awe of nubile female beauty, like a lot of men. I think what's special about Joss is that he finds powerful women *especially* hot. And that's what he seeks to represent, why he gives his female characters special abilities/powers. I don't especially mind this (kick-ass babes have their charm, though in the end probably not my type), but when one of Joss's strong female characters acts like a bitch I'm always going to find it off-putting, I'm not so in awe of her pretty face and strong character that I think she can act how she likes.

For a bit of reference, I do like the idea of women in art being portrayed as 'higher' creatures, and men being comparitively earthy and flawed (like Mal), but as a writer I would approach this theme with women who have powers along the lines of empathy/healing/spirituality - not physical ability, which doesn't do much for me in terms of what I think is real 'higher' feminine beauty.

Heads should roll

BYTEMITE

Monday, October 19, 2009 1:46 AM

Huh. Well, I don't really see Zoe as putting blame on Simon. As ever, Zoe is hard to read, but her demeanor doesn't even say "you shouldn't have done that" or "I can't believe you" or even "idiot". I seem to recall Zoe actually kind of puts her arm around Simon, and she seems more to be smiling, not in a mocking way, but sympathetic and understanding.

The only person who acts angry/overreacts seems to be Kaylee.

River, being a younger sister, pretty much has to think her older brother is always an idiot, even though they have a pretty good relationship, and takes that particular moment to comment on her perception.

But you have a point about no one making any comment about Kaylee and how her actions are inappropriate... Let's see. Kaylee complains to Inara... But never seems to explain fully what happened. I suspect Inara would probably take Kaylee's side.

...You know, now that I think about it, there's some scenes after Kaylee gives Simon the cold shoulder (like in the scene with Inara), just before Tracy shows up, where Kaylee seems particularly glum. Could it be Kaylee actually feels bad about how she reacted?

But again, no one else seems to particularly care that is Kaylee is upset with Simon. In Jaynestown, Mal seems extremely amused when Kaylee gets mad, I always thought that was because Mal doesn't particularly like Simon, but maybe there's something deeper than that. Did they expect it?

Or, if not, is there something in Kaylee's past that explains her overreaction? Kaylee seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim. Where might that come from?

KPO

Monday, October 19, 2009 2:18 AM

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Huh. Well, I don't really see Zoe as putting blame on Simon. As ever, Zoe is hard to read, but her demeanor doesn't even say "you shouldn't have done that" or "I can't believe you" or even "idiot". I seem to recall Zoe actually kind of puts her arm around Simon, and she seems more to be smiling, not in a mocking way, but sympathetic and understanding.

The commentary, from Zoe and River, is that Simon is awkward and socially unadept, especially when dealing with women; and that is the explanation for the bust up (I can't remember Joss's DVD commentary on the situation but I'm guessing it is much the same - I'll be surprised if he talks about any special insights into Kaylee's flawed character). As an audience watching human confict on TV you require this kind of writer's commentary, framing who is the good guy and who is the bad guy (because you know, even a bad guy is righteous in their own mind and will behave like it). And sometimes if you have a different view of who is in the wrong than what the writer is trying to tell you, the whole watching experience jars. This is what I think happens a few times with firefly, when women act like bitches towards men without real justification and without getting called on it.

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Or, if not, is there something in Kaylee's past that explains her overreaction? Kaylee seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex about being poor and coming from the Rim.

Don't worry I'm not angry at Kaylee :-) She can be flawed and I'll forgive her - but the flaws ought to be acknowledged in the story. No, I'm suggesting Joss doesn't see the flaws himself, because he's generally in awe of women.

Heads should roll

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Monday, October 19, 2009 2:26 AM

@BYTEMITE - Actually, I agree with you about Zoe. Her "presence" was always strongly felt (to me at least) in every scene she was in...I think it's just I wanted MOREMOREMORE Zoe. and she is closed off - we get a glimpse at what she's thinking, but never the whole story. She was as mysterious in her own way for me as she was solid. I wish we had had a Zoe-centric episode. That was the ONLY reason I was less than devastated by Wash dying, b/c I assumed that as the show had gone on (IF it had/will -hoping still) we would have gotten a lot more Zoe.

@KPO - yeah, portraying women as being allowed to get away with being snotty isn't "feminist", per se, but portraying a young woman like Kaylee acting in an immature fashion, as she does, is terrifically realistic. its like "oh boys will be boys", only as applied to a girl in this case. I think we were actually supposed to sympathize with Simon under the circumstances. I mean, I did. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else....but I think it was obvious Zoe did.
I do take a little objection (that's probably too strong a word, honestly) about the empathetic qualities, among others, as being the highest for women. That's not the only strength, or "type", of strength or good quality that a human of the female variety is capable of, and not to go off topic, but we had good examples in Firefly of men portraying that virtue instead. Wash, in particular, but Simon and even Mal I think all showed a strong capacity for it. Come to think of it, getting a little back on the topic, did Wash ever make a "mistake" of any kind? There was the fight with him and Mal in War Stories, but as others pointed out that was a pretty reasonable reaction given his uncertainty re: his wife's loyalties - which stemmed from her lack of communication. I can't think of any other time...He just always seemed to be an all around awesome person, almost without faults.

@BYTEMITE (again:)) I think Simon and River have a better than close relationship, and that scene struck me as something I would have done with my sibling if they had been shot down - make a slightly cutting remark as a joke to lighten them up. I'm betting Simon saw it that way as well. But you bring up a great point about Kaylee - it's really apparent to me that she has both a fascination with the finer things in life (like the fascination so many have with the extremely wealthy and their lifestyles, or celebs) and Simon represents that to her....Inara as well, so she is drawn to them both. But with Simon the whole romance thing comes into play as well, and yeah, I think that being around him definitely brings her insecurities and awareness of her lower-class status and background to the forefront for her...maybe she's just particularly defensive around him? It would be interesting to learn if there were any particular incidents in her past that may have contributed to that, or if that's just how she is. She reminds me sometimes a little of the main character in Memoirs of a Geisha...except she never becomes a geisha.

BYTEMITE

Monday, October 19, 2009 2:57 AM

Don't forget Book, Book was a male figure of extreme empathy and healing, and he worked hard to become so.

And in regards to Wash, he managed to resist SAFFRON. The guy should seriously be a saint!

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I think Simon and River have a better than close relationship, and that scene struck me as something I would have done with my sibling if they had been shot down - make a slightly cutting remark as a joke to lighten them up. I'm betting Simon saw it that way as well.

I have a big brother myself. It's such a little sister thing to do.

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...maybe she's just particularly defensive around him? It would be interesting to learn if there were any particular incidents in her past that may have contributed to that, or if that's just how she is. She reminds me sometimes a little of the main character in Memoirs of a Geisha...except she never becomes a geisha.

I think she is defensive, and that something contributed to that.

And being that Kaylee is sort of like Inara's little sister... I can definitely agree with Memoirs of a Geisha junior. :)

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, October 19, 2009 8:10 AM

Saw some mention of feminism equalling or in relation to physical beauty, attractiveness, nublity. Some have denied this correlation, some have championed the case.
Hate to break the news, but physical attractiveness is a power among humans, both for females as well as for males. Not saying it should be that way, but it is. The so-called "beautiful people" have a distinct advantage in business and other competition, particularly sales. Not much point in denying it.

ASARIAN

Monday, October 19, 2009 8:48 AM

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Saw some mention of feminism equalling or in relation to physical beauty, attractiveness, nublity. Some have denied this correlation, some have championed the case.
Hate to break the news, but physical attractiveness is a power among humans, both for females as well as for males. Not saying it should be that way, but it is. The so-called "beautiful people" have a distinct advantage in business and other competition, particularly sales. Not much point in denying it.

That was not the way of it. I doubt you'll find anyone willing to deny that physical attractiveness is a power among humans. The question was whether a woman's physical beauty equates to feminism. I argued the case that such sexual 'power' is A) rather a faux power (using sex to get on equal terms with men denies said equality to begin with); and B) that, while 'strong' and 'power' are often mentioned in the same sentence, and feminism is also often associated with 'strong' women, being sexually alluring by no means equates to feminism as "the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men."

--
"What holds the world together, as I have learned from bitter experience, is sexual intercourse." -- Henry Miller

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, October 19, 2009 10:08 AM

Check the last full paragraph of fearthebunnyman.

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Monday, October 19, 2009 10:39 AM

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Check the last full paragraph of fearthebunnyman.

No, Asarian has the right of it, he/she just put it a lot better than I did. I would agree that beauty or physical attractiveness can translate into social capital in a lot of situations, but not all women have it, not those that do have it all their lives, some men have it, and that same beauty that can be a privilege in one circumstance can be a real liability or even a danger in so many others. So I think its overstating it to call it "power".

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Monday, October 19, 2009 11:10 AM

Oh, and to get back on the topic, bytamite brought up Book which was a good point; Book's checkered past aside, we have him and Wash as to main (male) characters that, as far as I can recall, are virtually faultless. Are they pedestalled? and if so, you figure that's why Joss killed them off? ;)

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