Firefly Episode Discussions

Firefly Feminism. 'Pedestalled?'

POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Thursday, January 21, 2010 15:24
VIEWED: 9131
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BYTEMITE

Friday, October 16, 2009 11:31 PM

Just an interesting side topic that got started in another thread here that I thought warranted further discussion.

I think there's definitely good points here about Joss Whedon feminism and putting ladies on a pedestal, but also part of what I love about the Firefly girls is that they feel very real to me.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
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Finally, for all of Joss Whedon's feminist cred, his concepts easily fall into exploitation rather than empowerment. He often falls into the trap of trying to put the women on a pedestal, rather than portraying them as real in all their strengths and flaws. And that is a form of marginalization (read Simone de Beauvoir). Dollhouse's treatment of its women is very shallow, unlike, say, Dark Angel.
The final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer almost made me gag, the way Buffy turned into a selfish, deluded, stupid, self-righteous bitch. This is why Faith and Willow were always so much more interesting than Buffy.

Found that very interesting--in that I never liked Buffy (because I thought those adjectives described her perfectly for eight years), but loved the show. And I admit all of the female characters in Firefly might well come under the same description: pedastalled.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Interesting. All of them?

River perhaps might be "pedastalled." Hurt dark waifishly ethereal girl who can kick ass is probably someone's female fantasy.

Zoe's attitude and strength is as well, I think Wash pretty much sums up that angle.

But Kaylee and Inara...? While both are attractive, even drop-dead gorgeous, I also always got "just a regular girl" vibes from them, where Kaylee is the tom-boy and Inara is the lip-stick and high-heels girl.

And I've also always thought that Inara was about deconstructing pedestals. She's introduced as a character who is arguably higher on the social totem pole than anyone except the Tams before the Academy, but she's also shown to be "one of the gang." The only character who resists that inclusion is Mal, who does put her on a pedestal in a way that I think is meant to illustrate how foolish his behaviour is.

Kaylee too, yeah she's a little harsh on Simon now and then, but I thought one of the themes there was to get Simon to loosen up. Respect, but without being ridiculous or condescending.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
As to Inara and Kaylee--to me, Inara is about as "pedastalled" as anyone could possibly be. The untouchable goddess. And Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedastal? What I saw, in both Firefly AND Buffy, was the men screwing up, but rarely the women. The men did stupid stuff, the women made cracks about it (along with others of the men)...but the women rarely made dumb mistakes.

That's just my opinion.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Wait.... miracle worker Engineers who always fix the ship are pretty much a staple of the genre. Why is no one complaining about Scotty being on a pedestal?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think the women did make mistakes. Wash is rightfully pissed at Zoe in War Stories for her non-support, which actually causes the main problem in the episode. River has some tendencies to wander off and cause problems, though after the Reaver massacre, that probably won't feature as much with her. Inara has shown some extremely poor judgment in regards to clients, and also made what I think was a mistake in deciding to leave, though I can understand why she did. Kaylee... Okay, I can't actually think of any times where Kaylee made any mistakes, except that one time when she gets pissed at Simon and starts flirting with Tracy, but that was really minor. Kaylee has, however, shown some naivety and lapses in judgment that I suspect would have gotten her in trouble eventually.

Do the men make mistakes MORE OFTEN? Probably. It could be possible that it's harder for the average audience to laugh at women making mistakes than it

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KPO

Sunday, October 18, 2009 12:27 AM

Interesting to hear these different opinions, missed this thread.

I personally think Joss reveres women somewhat, and that this comes across in firefly. Almost lazy writing it seems to me sometimes; the woman is right in the argument... because duh, she's the woman! When the real right and wrong of things is a bit more murky.

Heads should roll

RIVERDANCER

Sunday, October 18, 2009 9:01 AM

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Originally posted by kpo:
the woman is right in the argument... because duh, she's the woman!

Was Zoe right to not support or at least be honest with her husband? Was Kaylee right to get defensive and pointedly leave Simon alone in a bar on Canton where he could get his face smashed in, rather than talking to him? Was she right to put off talking to him until after he'd gotten said face-smashing? Was Inara right when she made arguments to Mal about why she might stay on Persephone with Atherton, or was she arguing more out of spite than anything? Was River 'right' in her cussing and hurling about of things? Was Mrs. Tam right when arguing with Simon about River? Was Zoe right in her initial opinion of Serenity? Was Kaylee right to leave the Engine room a mess of wires? Was Inara necessarily right to blame Mal entirely for the backwater worlds they'd been frequenting? Was River right when she went after jayne with a knife? Was Patience right to shoot Mal, twice, over her own greed?
While their were instances of men being somewhat in the wrong, I'm having some trouble coming up with any situation where the woman was totally right and the man was totally wrong, and that's just how it was because she was she and he was he. If you have something specific in mind, do please elaborate.

KPO

Sunday, October 18, 2009 1:16 PM

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I'm having some trouble coming up with any situation where the woman was totally right and the man was totally wrong, and that's just how it was because she was she and he was he.

How about the storyline in the message where Simon is so blunderous and insensitive with Kaylee that she becomes estranged and alienated for the rest of the episode, shooting down his attempts at reconciliation and even going off with another guy that she's only just met. There is no question that she is over-reacting or even acting like a bitch... because no, she is the woman. It is all Simon's fault.

Heads should roll

BYTEMITE

Sunday, October 18, 2009 3:36 PM

And she's so totally right that she also almost gets abducted and/or shot by the guy she was flirting with to make Simon jealous.

Kaylee judgment for the lose.

Also: Bester. Really? Girl, please find some standards ASAP.

My perception has always been that Zoe shows Simon what goes for sympathy around the ship, rather than being pissed at him for hurting their mei mei.

River's reaction to Kaylee being mad at Simon is pure little sister. The rest of them don't particularly seem to care one way or another. They don't pass judgment on who's right or wrong in this case, so I don't think the audience is really intended to.

KWICKO

Sunday, October 18, 2009 4:38 PM

I *DO* think Joss tends to worship women. He seems to be perpetually in awe of the amazing power of adolescent girls and young women, something I think he probably first witnessed in middle school, and has never really gotten past. In fact, he's built up that power and multiplied and magnified it, until in him mind, young girls are super-beings. And he's not far wrong, is he? All the world falls at the feet of beautiful 18 or 20 year-olds, yes? If they don't have the physical abilities themselves to slay dragons and demons, they at least have the physical attributes to inspire others to do so for them. And it's been so since at least the days of Helen of Troy, or so they say...

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

ASARIAN

Sunday, October 18, 2009 6:03 PM

*Caveat lector* some perhaps not all too kind analysis ahead.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I *DO* think Joss tends to worship women. He seems to be perpetually in awe of the amazing power of adolescent girls and young women, something I think he probably first witnessed in middle school, and has never really gotten past. In fact, he's built up that power and multiplied and magnified it, until in him mind, young girls are super-beings. And he's not far wrong, is he? All the world falls at the feet of beautiful 18 or 20 year-olds, yes?

Well, that's probably exactly what's a bit fishy about calling it 'feminism.' Who doesn't like beautiful 18-20 year-olds? (Remember sexy, feisty Annie? LOL). In the end, though, if you respect young women for their body, you really don't respect them at all (unless revering a hot piece of meat is somehow respectful). In a way such 'feminism' is actually a childish form of courtship, really: not mature enough to tell 'em directly that you think they're hawt, so instead you put them on a pedastel, and thus indirectly 'say' it.

In my own example of Annie (Heroes), I thought she was very sexy. I wouldn't put her on a pedastel for it, though, or ascribe feelings of respect towards her, or call myself a feminist because of it. It just meant I thought she was hot. :) I do respect women, btw; and I would certainly call myself a feminist, in that I am a huge proponent of equality between the sexes. But, to me, respecting young women because they're enchantingly gorgeous is just silly. For me, the two are simply unrelated. Eliza Dushku is a good example, IMHO, of Joss probably ascribing more/better acting skills to a young women than she, in fact, has: just because she's hot. I mean, you can push women to the foreground, give 'em ass-kicking roles, walking around the set half-nekkid; and you could try and sell is as feminism, saying you like to see and promote strong women. And I'm sure there be enough folks who actually buy it -- I'm just not one of them. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:47 PM

Hi, first time poster, long time lurker here, but I've been seeing a lot of discussion lately about Joss's feminism and Firefly, and thought I'd jump in.

Joss stated pretty clearly somewhere (and forgive me for not remembering if it was a speech or on a commentary) that he likes to write women's strengths and men's weaknesses, and partly he does that because its so rare to see in television. So its partially correct to see women as somewhat "pedestalled" in his work. However, one of the things that Joss is good at is making women fully-fleshed out characters, rather then the caricatures or two-dimensional creatures we usually find. He does the same for male characters as well. And the women in Firefly have plenty of flaws, and KPO brought up a good point with the Kaylee/Simon dynamic. I think the "Simon is a jerk" thing that came about after he flubbed his compliment to her in the cow scene was more of a reaction from fans, that I noticed, b/c if you actually go back and watch the scene, it's sooo obvious that he is sincerely trying to pay her a compliment, he just got put on the spot a bit and flubbed it. I mean, his tone, his body language, everything about that was so clear that he was nervous but really genuinely trying....and for someone who supposedly has such a high E.Q. as Kaylee, her reaction was a total biatch-out. I think that may have been Joss's way of showing us - yeah, Kaylee has her flaws - immaturity, drama queen, and she's got a total biatch side to her. Which is great, because NO ONE is THAT nice, including Kaylee.

And Inara is as flawed as Mal, emotionally, and in the exact same areas. Zoe its harder to say because I never felt like we got nearly enough of Zoe.

Also, that whole thing about women's looks being power is a load of crap, pardon my bluntness. Power is power, if you have to use your body or looks to get what you want that's not power - if you had the power you'd get it without having to resort to using your body and putting yourself in that kind of danger. And liking the way a woman looks has nothing to do with respect - often it has exactly the opposite effect.

Anywho, that's my two cents worth! Interesting discussion.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:27 PM

Hey, nice to meet you.

For someone so stoic, Zoe got a lot of lines, and if not lines, then camera cuts to her reactions. I would actually say we got a lot of her in a sense, she got plenty of wry jokes and roll-eyes at Mal's expense, and practical ideas and advice. Which might be an argument FOR the pedestalled thing, and I think if anyone could be considered pedestalled in the show, it might be Zoe.

On the other hand, Zoe is particularly hard to read, and therefore might feel more untouchable badass to us fans because she was so reserved with her emotions. Even in War Stories, when she's alarmed seeing Wash tortured, we FEEL she's alarmed, we see it in her eyes and how she supports Wash down the hallway, but she keeps it clamped down tight. Does she blame herself? Surely she must, but she doesn't bring it up.

Perhaps that's another thing that might lead to the pedastalled perception; Firefly never lingered very long on the mistakes the women made. They were more implied, while the men really got hammered with jokes about their mistakes (like with Saffron, and Saffron AGAIN... Actually, now that I think about it, Mal had a higher percentage of humdingers than ANYONE).

KPO

Monday, October 19, 2009 12:42 AM

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They don't pass judgment on who's right or wrong in this case

Well, they don't pass judgement on Kaylee. You're right to bring up Zoe and River as the two people who provide commentary on the situation, interpreting it for us. They put some blame on Simon, as does Simon himself. Nobody ever provides commentary for Kaylee's over-reacting or arguably acting like a bitch though (in this or other episodes). Is her bitchy behaviour nothing out of the ordinary, that it doesn't require commentary/interpreting? This is how we are to expect women to behave? Because that's not very feminist.

My theory is that Joss tends to place women above blame a little bit - in his mind they are justified to act how they please... and this leads to some occasional bad writing.

Heads should roll