The Time Traveler's process

POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 01:48
VIEWED: 3198
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JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, August 31, 2009 7:58 AM

I recently saw The Time Traveler's Wife and enjoyed it as long as I ignored the time traveling parts - as I explained to somebody, the time traveling is the setting, not what the film is about, sorta like Titanic was the setting of the story, not the whole story, and somewhat like Somewhere in Time (I think, with Chris Reeves and Jane Alexander).

Then somebody reminded me of the time travel parts, and how it would not be possible in the way portrayed for this film. Because some of the astrodynamics were recently discussed in the Map of the Verse thread, I could point out the basic problems with moving in time with the physical body (conscious and sensory time travel is another matter, and already proven, so won't be discussed here).

The problem is the movement through space and time, and the movement of time is not a function or relationship with gravity.
Consider the Earth rotates once per day, about 24,900 miles per day, or about 3 miles per second. So if you moved one second in time, the Earth would have rotated until the mountain or skyscraper 3 miles away was now encapsulating you - fairly unsurvivable.
Also consider earth obrits the Sun once per year, about 6.28Au per year, or about 18.5 miles per second. So if you were on the leading edge of Earth (at sunrise) when you moved one second in time, you would arrive at a spot in space about 18.5 miles beneath the earth's surface. About 7 minutes would get you about the opposite side of earth, tho. Likewise, if you were on Earth's trailng edge (sunset), you would end up 18 miles above the earth's surface, also unviable without breathing gear, parachute, space suit perhaps.

Does that make sense? Or does anybody disagree?

ECGORDON

Monday, August 31, 2009 11:18 AM

It may make sense, but since time travel is purely speculative you can twist the science around any way you like to make it work in a story or movie. I would say the gravitational force of the Earth would keep the traveler near the same point on the planet during travel.

KWICKO

Monday, August 31, 2009 11:58 AM

Yup, makes total sense. That's why you have to suspend your disbelief.

I think it was Larry Niven who wrote a great little treatise on this subject some years ago, pointing out lots of this stuff and more. The Earth is rotating, it's moving in its orbit around the sun, which is moving in ITS orbit around the center of the galaxy, which is moving within the greater local cluster, which is moving within the greater universe, etc. All told, we're talking matters of tens of thousands of miles per hour, so when you're time traveling, you need to be exact down to the nanosecond. In other words, it's not just a point in TIME, but also a point in time and SPACE. You need more than an x, y, and z coordinate to mark a place in space, you also need a t coordinate for time, as in, you need to travel to HERE, and you need to be there THEN.

But if I really start thinking about it, I have a problem with ghosts walking through walls yet standing on the ground, too.

Mike

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 31, 2009 4:09 PM

The leading theory I'm aware of is that they're incorporeal echoes of a person's soul locked in the unending torment of their own death, and that, as an unexisting phastasm and the product of the residue they left in their life on the human superconscious, they are not constrained by physics. Kind of like seeing a waking dream or something.

However, they tend to forget all that, because they don't have brains. Whoops!

My ass is so haunted. Anyway.

This is interesting, and I definitely agree with needing x, y, x and t down to nanoseconds, because say even that you're going to try to travel exactly one orbital period (to the nanosecond) into the future. Aren't there variations in the earth's orbit that could also end up with you being miles off target?

KWICKO

Monday, August 31, 2009 5:47 PM

Don't get me wrong, Byte - I have no problem with the idea of ghosts or hauntings (I even have the t-shirt: "When I Die, I'm Going to Haunt the Fuck Out of You People." ), just with the way they're commonly portrayed in movies. I've had my own, ermmm... odd experiences with people who are no longer corporeal, so I can't just say it's all bunk and toss it aside.

Mike

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 31, 2009 5:58 PM

I'm mostly just saying I agree, why walk when you can float?

I can't say I'm really a believer in the paranormal. But no offense to anyone who does. I was just making a ghost joke.

TRAVELER

Tuesday, September 1, 2009 12:06 AM

Well look at "Quantum Leap". That certainly put a new twist to time travel. So give the writers of science fiction some license or they will have to spend pages of techno talk that will drag out the story and make it dull.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, September 1, 2009 9:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yup, makes total sense. That's why you have to suspend your disbelief.

I think it was Larry Niven who wrote a great little treatise on this subject some years ago, pointing out lots of this stuff and more. The Earth is rotating, it's moving in its orbit around the sun, which is moving in ITS orbit around the center of the galaxy, which is moving within the greater local cluster, which is moving within the greater universe, etc. All told, we're talking matters of tens of thousands of miles per hour, so when you're time traveling, you need to be exact down to the nanosecond. In other words, it's not just a point in TIME, but also a point in time and SPACE. You need more than an x, y, and z coordinate to mark a place in space, you also need a t coordinate for time, as in, you need to travel to HERE, and you need to be there THEN.

But if I really start thinking about it, I have a problem with ghosts walking through walls yet standing on the ground, too.

Mike

I hope I'm not ill, but Kwicko has said what I was going to follow up with, so I effectively agree with him. Don't shoot me.

I have no problem with time travel in space, using wormholes or tears in the space fabric (not using black holes ala Star Trek - an entire planet can be crushed to the size of a pinhead, but whole spaceships pass through unscathed?).

For Earth, at sunrise one is at the same point in space that the opposite side of Earth will be in about 7 minutes, or 4-5 minutes for upper latitudes. So co-existing in the same point but different times could allow or cause the time travel, I can go with that. But in Time Traveler's Wife, it could be controlled by the traveller, and span decades - which also was in Heroes. That I can't account for.

I've tried using the Earths gravitaion to hold the traveler to Earth's surface, but that means the traveler is spinning around all those revolutions during the travel - and according to Einstein, would age that much whether going forward or backward during each travel. I have not been able to accommodate that, either.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, October 5, 2009 7:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

But if I really start thinking about it, I have a problem with ghosts walking through walls yet standing on the ground, too.

Mike

I had meant to point out the obvious answer here.
The ghost presents the appearance they wish to present. If they want to present to you, it does them no good to hide in the earth, although they can. They can hover, float, go through walls, floors, earth, whatever. Instead of hovering 1 foot off the floor, or one foot below the floor, they can hover zero inches off the floor when they interact with you.
Get it? or can only conservatives understand logic?

KWICKO

Tuesday, October 6, 2009 6:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

But if I really start thinking about it, I have a problem with ghosts walking through walls yet standing on the ground, too.

Mike

I had meant to point out the obvious answer here.
The ghost presents the appearance they wish to present. If they want to present to you, it does them no good to hide in the earth, although they can. They can hover, float, go through walls, floors, earth, whatever. Instead of hovering 1 foot off the floor, or one foot below the floor, they can hover zero inches off the floor when they interact with you.
Get it? or can only conservatives understand logic?

Heh - maybe someday you'll explain to me all the "logic" to be found in that stupid bible all you conservatives cream all over...

I think my issues with conservatives involve them being resolutely UNABLE to grasp simple logic or mere facts. As Reagan said, "Facts are stupid things." As are conservatives!

Look it up - you'll find that the more educated the voter, the higher their IQ, the more liberal they tend to be.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams