WOW! OIS Commentary (spoilers for commentary)

POSTED BY: heb
UPDATED: Saturday, July 17, 2004 05:48
VIEWED: 19844
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HEB

Monday, June 21, 2004 3:41 PM

oops double post

RADHIL

Monday, June 21, 2004 7:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by heb:
Despite encompassing a staggering range of philosophical, religious, and political ideologies, the underlying concepts of existentialism are simple:
• Mankind has free will.
• Life is a series of choices, creating stress.
• Few decisions are without any negative consequences.
• Some things are irrational or absurd, without explanation.
• If one makes a decision, he or she must follow through.

...

This seems to make sense. However if we are made up of elementary particles all interacting and there is a grand unified theory maybe the choices we make are pre-determined or maybe parallel universes exist where we have made the alternate choice. How does this fit in with existentialism? I don’t know and we can’t really go around living our lives on the basis that we’re just a bunch of particles. These are just some initial ponderings as I merely begin to brush the surface of existentialism. I’ll see what more I can find out later when I’m not supposed to be revising.

I haven't studied the specifics of existentialism (other than to throw it around as a concept word whenever Big Damn Questions got tossed around on message boards), but I have picked up a thing or two on deep thought (on said message boards) and one is this - never fall for the 'elementary particle' pit.

Yes, you are made up of said particles. Yes, said particles have basic laws governing all their interactions. Yes, you could conceivably predict the motions of two or three (or a thou) using known physics. All true, and all misleading, and all intended to make you ignore the first factoid you listed there. People who seriously listen to that crap should just go get stoned, it'd save them time.

You are made of trillions of these damn things, interacting in a horrificly complex system with permutations of possibility that defy any standard model or unified theory. That's no small bit of magic. Or in Cap'n talk, that's not nothing.

From someone who spends way too much time mulling this garbage too....

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

PIERSNICA

Monday, June 21, 2004 7:25 PM

I'm a philosophy idiot (other than I know that I am an atheist of some stripe), but people keep telling me I'm an existentialist. Maybe that's why the show resonates... It's cool, though, that there are other like-minded fans.

HEB

Monday, June 21, 2004 7:45 PM

Quote:

I haven't studied the specifics of existentialism (other than to throw it around as a concept word whenever Big Damn Questions got tossed around on message boards), but I have picked up a thing or two on deep thought (on said message boards) and one is this - never fall for the 'elementary particle' pit.

Yes, you are made up of said particles. Yes, said particles have basic laws governing all their interactions. Yes, you could conceivably predict the motions of two or three (or a thou) using known physics. All true, and all misleading, and all intended to make you ignore the first factoid you listed there. People who seriously listen to that crap should just go get stoned, it'd save them time.

You are made of trillions of these damn things, interacting in a horrificly complex system with permutations of possibility that defy any standard model or unified theory. That's no small bit of magic. Or in Cap'n talk, that's not nothing.

Like I said it was just some initial ponderings I was throwing around. I'm not saying we could ever predict anything based on this, like you said it would be infinitely complicated. All I was thinking about is that each particle interaction has a certain probability wave thing and so these would, I would have thought, combine to give a certain probability of an action on a larger scale - but one that would be (almost) infitely complicated to calculate.

I was just thinking about a comment that I think was made in the Brief History of Time by Steven Hawking (I don't have the book to hand to check the quote though, sorry) that said whether or not our search for a unified theory is successful could actually have already been determined by the theory.

But like I said we can't go around living life like we are merely a bunch of particles and as far as we are concerned we do have free will. It makes you wonder is all.

Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood

HEB

Monday, June 21, 2004 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Piersnica:
It's cool, though, that there are other like-minded fans.

It is very cool. And even if Browncoats don't agree on stuff we've got Firefly in common. That's not much... but it's enough.

(Ok shameless, gratuitous firefly paraphrasing I know - so throw me out the airlock)

Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood

WYDRAZ

Monday, June 21, 2004 8:16 PM

OiS is one of my favorites too. Funny thing is, perhaps because I'm not an atheist, it helped confirm some beliefs I have about God. What's even funnier to me is how people can claim there is no God. Those that don't believe in something more powerful than themself, I'd say might have an arrogance issue.

All that exists cannot be perceived by human senses, and to assume that we know everything is the hight of human presumptuousness. By saying there is no God, one presumes to know all there is to know; one also presumes to know what God is, and that's something everyone must define for themselves. At least, perhaps, until String Theory or the next quantum leap in science proves God's existence, as many scientists are beginning to realize.

Okay, I'm way off topic now, and I'll get off the pulpit. Sorry about that.

DARKSKY

Monday, June 21, 2004 8:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wydraz:
All that exists cannot be perceived by human senses, and to assume that we know everything is the hight of human presumptuousness.

Indeed. But I don't think anyone here claimed they can perceive everything.

Quote:

By saying there is no God, one presumes to know all there is to know;

I don't agree on this. Claiming that there is no God is not the same as claiming one is a God oneself. In a way, believing there is no God is a religion as well. That is why personnally, I would say I'm an agnostic, i.e. I simply don't know.

Quote:

At least, perhaps, until String Theory or the next quantum leap in science proves God's existence, as many scientists are beginning to realize.

Explain to me just how string theory can do that! Frankly, I don't really see the connection.

But the thing about proving God's existence reminds me of a passage from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'. I don't have the books here, but it was something about the babelfish, I'll try to remember as good as I can:
"'I deny to prove that I exist' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I'm nothing'. 'Well', says man, 'The babelfish is a dead give-away, it couldn't have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and therefore, by your own logic, you don't. QED.' 'Oh', says God, 'I didn't think of that!' and instantly vanishes in a puff of logic."
Something like that... Makes me wonder how many true believers you find in the bible, actually, that is, those who have not seen some kind of prove.

Sorry for being totally off-topic here, just a very interesting subject, I couldn't resist.

STARPILOTGRAINGER

Monday, June 21, 2004 8:41 PM

I think assuming that people who don't believe in God are arrogant and don't accept a power higher than themselves is a little off the mark, akin to saying that religious people are just afraid to take responsibility for their own actions. Neither is really true (although, I'm sure for some individuals on both sides, it is).

I believe in many powers above myself. I believe it's likely there are aliens who are far more intelligent than I (although I'm not certain). Hell, I'm certain there are people who are better than I. I believe the wonder of the universe in all its supreme, natural majesty is far greater than any one being can conceive, and that's okay, that's beautiful. I even believe it's possible that there is some form of God. I just believe that on the basis of the evidence I have seen so far, that this is not the likeliest scenario. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm humble enough to admit I'm probably wrong about a lot of things. If I am, I'd hope that whatever omnipotent entity out there is not so petty as to punish me eternally for being wrong, but we are limited creatures.

As to the whole 'elementary particles' vs 'free will'... I took a philosophy course a couple years ago where they put forth arguments that determinism and free will aren't necessarily incompatible (and that non-determinism doesn't necessarily grant free will, as currently quantum mechanics suggests that the universe is probabalistic). I'm not sure I entirely agree with it, but there were some interesting things to think about. The way I look at it is that we act as though we have free will, so then the question's moot. Whether it's free will, "Not Actually Free Will But An Incredible Simulation", "I Can't Believe It's Not Free Will", doesn't really significantly alter how we act, and a difference which makes no difference is no difference.

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6

HEB

Monday, June 21, 2004 8:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wydraz:
OiS is one of my favorites too. Funny thing is, perhaps because I'm not an atheist, it helped confirm some beliefs I have about God. What's even funnier to me is how people can claim there is no God. Those that don't believe in something more powerful than themself, I'd say might have an arrogance issue.

All that exists cannot be perceived by human senses, and to assume that we know everything is the hight of human presumptuousness. By saying there is no God, one presumes to know all there is to know; one also presumes to know what God is, and that's something everyone must define for themselves. At least, perhaps, until String Theory or the next quantum leap in science proves God's existence, as many scientists are beginning to realize.

Okay, I'm way off topic now, and I'll get off the pulpit. Sorry about that.

Ok. I'm going to set out my athiestish beliefs here so if anyone might be offended I apologise, no offensiveness is intended.

Firstly I consider myself pretty much an athiest. I don't believe that there is a God but I rule nothing out 100%. I think if there is a Creator it is likely to be of the form of an alien messing about in a lab with black holes accidently creating our Universe. The Bible or any apparent miracles are not sufficient evidence for me that there is a God and so I have no reason to believe in one. A lack of evidence does not prove the converse but I think the chances of us having hit on the exact explanation of the universe are pretty slim.

I don't believe I have 'arrogance issues'. In fact I believe humans are just one second in the history of the Universe. The Universe will exist long after we are gone and humans are just a very tiny unpowerful part of it.

I do not presume to know all there is to know. In fact it a constant source of annoyance to me that we will never know all there is to know about the Universe. This is why I want to be a physicist - to find out as much as there is to know.

It really makes me dizzy to consider 'where is the universe?' What is outside of it? What was before it? I know the Universe is everything and there is nothing outside of it but that is an impossible concept to comprehend. I don't think saying God created the Universe answers it. Because in that case who created God. If you then say God has always existed - then why can't you use the argument the Universe/Multiverse in some form or other has always existed.

So basically what I'm trying to say and I don't think I put very well. Is that I don't think not believing in God means that I think I know all that there is too know or assume that human beings are the most powerful force in the universe.

If any of the above came off with me sounding like I have 'arrogance issues' then I apologise. Like I said I am not 100% sure of anything these views are just the way in which I personally interpret any evidence.

Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood

RADHIL

Monday, June 21, 2004 8:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wydraz:
OiS is one of my favorites too. Funny thing is, perhaps because I'm not an atheist, it helped confirm some beliefs I have about God. What's even funnier to me is how people can claim there is no God. Those that don't believe in something more powerful than themself, I'd say might have an arrogance issue.

Uh oh. Now, you shouldn't have done that while I was prowlin' around.

Quote:
All that exists cannot be perceived by human senses, and to assume that we know everything is the hight of human presumptuousness. By saying there is no God, one presumes to know all there is to know; one also presumes to know what God is, and that's something everyone must define for themselves. At least, perhaps, until String Theory or the next quantum leap in science proves God's existence, as many scientists are beginning to realize.

Not(White) Does Not Equal Pure(Black). You are leaping from one extreme to another, and it don't add up.

Things I think are bigger than me: How 'bout EVERYTHING ELSE. I just got to look outside and watch a summer thunderstorm roll by to know that. Existence is humbling enough, if you bother to look at it.

Things I think I know: Jack @!#$, compared to all there is to know. I know my reality, I know my dreams, and I know my mind. My brain's frickin' full from that stuff already, so I wouldn't presume to be omniscient enough to predict whether God and the Pearly Gates exist or not. But I don't think it matters if he does or not. I'd be living the same either way - as best I can, with the best morals I can figure.

This ain't presumption, nor arrogance. If it turns out I'm wrong, God'll likely smack me around when he gets me. But that's next life. Got enough worries in this one.

(Strings? WTF?)

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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