The Guild, Serenity, Mal, and Inara
POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Monday, January 15, 2024 00:21
VIEWED: 20583
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Quote:Again to quote Book: “When I talk about belief, why do you always assume I'm talking about God?”
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:I'd say this more describes Mal as having found a cause he believed in, not a belief like the one he lost in the Valley.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Mal found belief and faith in himself, and in a cause worth dying for. You can't fit the dictionary definition of belief better than that!
This is a different discussion you bring up, AR. I wasn’t arguing that Mal is completely healed and fixed at the end of the movie, with a whole new lifelong belief to replace his lost faith in God. But he certainly has found *a* belief, countering what Bytemite posted: “I for one think that Mal DOESN'T find belief through Wash and Book's death. I think he's driven entirely by revenge and righteous anger to go to Miranda, to sic the Reavers …”
That’s what I’ve been after – this idea that he was operating under nothing but revenge and righteous anger. I don't agree with that!
On to what you’re saying...
As Book says when he dies, it doesn’t matter what you believe, just believe. Mal’s made that step, seen that there is something in life worth fighting for. You may see this as no great change in his “overall mental state or life situation”, but I do. Very much. The war taught him that fighting for a cause will lead only to betrayal and loss, and he’s been a hallowed out, empty man living a directionless life or several years. He’s been avoiding any cause like the plague. But now he’s taken a huge risk in letting himself fight for a cause, and he won. That’s a step in the right direction. That allows him to take more steps.
As a person who lived without direction for several years myself, I can tell you that taking that first risk is the hardest damn step.
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I don't want to completely disagree with you AgentRouka, but, one of the things I took away from the movie, was that Mal, because of his investing in a cause and having a triumphant outcome has the confident tools to apply to up and coming obstacles that life will surely throw his way.
Is he completely healed and perfect now, no, but are any of us? He certainly has a better outlook, "We'll get through it soon enough".
I have a poster up in my classroom that says, "You can't change your past, but you CAN change your future" and a lot of my students ask me how to do that.
I tell them it means that once you've identified your mistakes you can learn from them, and you can do it differently next time, but that’s not going to happen until you try again.
That’s all Mal did, was to try again.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:That makes more sense! It still doesn't quite fit my own personal notion of the Guild - I don't see it so formal about "rites and ceremonies" - but that could be my own bias.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
In a fertility cult, a fertility rite was just a symbolic ritual, not necessarily about the priestess involved becoming pregnant, but rather as an emulation of the natural world, to produce some desired outcome through the magic of sex.
Remember in Jaynestown, where Inara insists on performing a tea greeting ceremony and pretty much forces Magistrate Higgins to leave?
I see a LOT of rituals and references to rituals and hints of rituals that I recognize with Inara, actually. I think they're common to companions, and I think there may be positions in the guild that delve more deeply into the ritualism and spiritualism.
Quote:
I haven't read much fic that delves into the spiritual side of the Guild. I'd like to, I think it could be quite interesting. Especially if it really explores the Buddhism aspect.
Me too! When I tried to write House Madrassa in one of my fics, I took as much inspiration from descriptions of the Forbidden City and Buddhist symbolism as I could, and really played up the belief Buddhists have in reincarnation. I think Inara's faith and spiritualism are a very important part of her, that we don't see as often as we do with Book simply because of the slight separation Inara has from the crew in the series.
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Re the ship's danger: we've been over this one too, haven't we?I see the danger as inherent to the world they live in, and I don't think that settling on a ranch would be so much safer. The settlers we've seen are not removed from the slavers/thieves/bullies of the `verse. They actually seem more helpless, since they can't fight back dirty or leave a bad situation.
This thread has also got me thinking that Mal brings a lot of it on himself. I think a safer way of life will come from changing his own ways, not from choosing a new locale.
Well, it's definitely true Mal brings a lot of it on himself...
The one time we really get a close look at how a family on the Rim might live is in the Heart of Gold episode. My impression is that yeah, sometimes some of their patrons might get annoying or too grabby and have to be ejected, but that the fight they have with Rance Burgess actually isn't business as usual.
You have Reaver raids, and slaver raids if you're not careful, and crime, and sometimes even Alliance power-trips, but my actual impression of the Rim is that despite all the hardship, there are actually long periods of peace and quiet.
Which is an impression I DON'T get with Serenity and her crew. It feels like they're always scrambling to get to the next world a few hours to a day or two away and get jobs and NOT get shot. Their lifestyle seems much higher stress than do the lives of settlers, based on accounts I've read from my ancestors moving out here to Utah.
Pioneers had Indian raids, federal government raids (the state looks down on polygamy, you know), even environmental stress and tension/politics within neighbors and the Mormon church. But really, actually? It was a hard life and hard work, but danger was more like in getting a bad cold or a snake-bite than with people.
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I just don't understand how anyone can really call the movie a TRIUMPH for Mal. Two people he really cared about and who he had taken under his protection DIED.
I sure don't see it as a triumph. Pyrrhic victory, maybe, but not something that would make anyone say "Glorious! Let's do that again, Whee!"
If Mal had known Book and Wash would've died, would he have done it anyway? Maybe, but he'd have thought it over more too, I think. I think he'd come away from Miranda with a lot of regrets.
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It's a "personal" triumph for Mal, B. That’s all I’m saying.
At the end, the Operative is asking Mal how he dealt with his loss at Serenity. Mal's strength as a leader is restored by the Operative's admiration.
Unfortunately, there are always consequences for your actions, whether they are well intended or not, like Wash and Book, but that doesn't negate the impact of what he did for those on Miranda.
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Huh, I guess I just don't see Mal as ever thinking that Wash and Book's death could make the Miranda broadwave worthwhile. Guess that's just a way you and I differ in regards to how we characterize Mal.
So, but we started talking about Mal and Serenity before this. I'm open to hearing alternative ideas, because like in my very first post, I recognized that Mal NOT having a ship would make it impossible for Inara to stay around. And I very much want her to stay around!
I just can't figure out how he can possibly heal on the ship when the environment is such a stressful one that forces him to take dangerous and criminal jobs.
I mean, I GUESS being with Inara could heal him, but that's soooo cliche. Plus that depiction would conflict with my belief that a relationship can't fix you, a person has to fix themselves before they can function in a relationship. I'd rather write Inara helping Mal to work through his issues, and Mal helping Inara with her troubles, and THEN they get together because then everything's right. Much more stable foundation.
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Quote:I've never said that there weren't ceremonies, clearly there are. But what we see Inara do is not such a formal ceremony that a specially trained, legally licensed, differently titled Priestess is required. This is part of every Companion's basic training.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Remember in Jaynestown, where Inara insists on performing a tea greeting ceremony and pretty much forces Magistrate Higgins to leave?
I see a LOT of rituals and references to rituals and hints of rituals that I recognize with Inara, actually. I think they're common to companions, and I think there may be positions in the guild that delve more deeply into the ritualism and spiritualism.
But yes, I can see that there might be more formal ceremonies going on elsewhere in the Guild. I am still leary of the need to "invest legal authority". Again with the separation of church and state.
Quote:Agreed! It's a shame we never got to see more of that in the series.
I think Inara's faith and spiritualism are a very important part of her, that we don't see as often as we do with Book simply because of the slight separation Inara has from the crew in the series.
Quote:Who do you mean? Rance and his wife? I don't count them, as they were not the average settlers. Far from it!
Well, it's definitely true Mal brings a lot of it on himself...
The one time we really get a close look at how a family on the Rim might live is in the Heart of Gold episode.
We've seen plenty of average families though. The dead in Bushwhacked, the townspeople preyed on by bullies in OMR, the trod on clay workers in Jaynestown, the sick miners in The Train Job, the doctorless villagers in Safe. You think these people all have the option of settling at a safe, productive ranch and chose their difficult lives instead?
Surely, real life doesn't have near as much as ongoing danger and raids and killing as portrayed in the series. But this isn't real life. It's Joss's fictional world, and in his world, "Settlers got plopped down with a few supplies and maybe a mule. Some of them make it. Some of them."
"I sure don't see it as a triumph. Pyrrhic victory, maybe, but not something that would make anyone say "Glorious! Let's do that again, Whee!""
No one's saying this, Bytemite. No one's saying he feels good about the whole thing. Experiences that lead to personal growth are often unpleasant. Doesn't mean there isn't growth, and it doesn't mean that bitterness is the only possible outcome. He will always have cause for grief, but he can also feel good about himself that he didn't take it lying down. He fought back.
ETA: by the way, you say he was "driven entirely by revenge and righteous anger". What is righteous anger caused by, other than one's beliefs being crossed? How can one be righteous without belief?
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Book as shown certainly didn't deserve to die. I use righteous anger in the sense that we can view it as understandable, even the correct emotional response.
Quote:
But yes, I can see that there might be more formal ceremonies going on elsewhere in the Guild. I am still leary of the need to "invest legal authority". Again with the separation of church and state.
Hmm, perhaps, but I think in the future, preachers are still performing marriages as much as county/moon magistrates. If that is so, and we can also view a priestess of the guild as a priestess as we define it today, as having some religious authority... Well, it seems to me like the guild might want to make sure that some of it's men and women are legally certified to perform the guild version of certain rituals or ceremonies. Prevent charlatans from posing as guild members and damaging the guild image or using the guild image to hurt people, you know?
Quote:
Who do you mean? Rance and his wife? I don't count them, as they were not the average settlers. Far from it!
I meant the whorehouse, actually. Nandi as the good caring head of household, the whores as the settler family. Nandi had to fight that time, I imagine on the Rim that yes, you do have to know how to fight, but like I said I don't think they were always in a drawn-gun standoff with Rance Burgess every day, or even every month.
Quote:
No one's saying this, Bytemite. No one's saying he feels good about the whole thing. Experiences that lead to personal growth are often unpleasant. Doesn't mean there isn't growth, and it doesn't mean that bitterness is the only possible outcome. He will always have cause for grief, but he can also feel good about himself that he didn't take it lying down. He fought back.
Like I was saying, I guess I can't see how someone can feel good about a personal milestone if someone they know and care about dies in the process. And if the person in question would undoubtedly feel responsible for the death.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:Again to quote Book: “When I talk about belief, why do you always assume I'm talking about God?”
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:I'd say this more describes Mal as having found a cause he believed in, not a belief like the one he lost in the Valley.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Mal found belief and faith in himself, and in a cause worth dying for. You can't fit the dictionary definition of belief better than that!
This is a different discussion you bring up, AR. I wasn’t arguing that Mal is completely healed and fixed at the end of the movie, with a whole new lifelong belief to replace his lost faith in God. But he certainly has found *a* belief, countering what Bytemite posted: “I for one think that Mal DOESN'T find belief through Wash and Book's death. I think he's driven entirely by revenge and righteous anger to go to Miranda, to sic the Reavers …”
That’s what I’ve been after – this idea that he was operating under nothing but revenge and righteous anger. I don't agree with that!
On to what you’re saying...
As Book says when he dies, it doesn’t matter what you believe, just believe. Mal’s made that step, seen that there is something in life worth fighting for. You may see this as no great change in his “overall mental state or life situation”, but I do. Very much. The war taught him that fighting for a cause will lead only to betrayal and loss, and he’s been a hallowed out, empty man living a directionless life or several years. He’s been avoiding any cause like the plague. But now he’s taken a huge risk in letting himself fight for a cause, and he won. That’s a step in the right direction. That allows him to take more steps.
As a person who lived without direction for several years myself, I can tell you that taking that first risk is the hardest damn step.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
Amen, Mal4Prez that was exactly what I was trying to say and you say it so much better!
I was thinking about something else too....Mal's home planet is Shadow...In a way, he had a shadow cast over him and and he was a shadow of his former self.
Goodness, I love Joss's word play and foreshadowing.
And Bytemite, most of the time personal growth comes during a time of or as a result of great sadness and regret.
Boy, don't I know that one. Most of the big leaps and personal revelations I've had have been the result of bad things that have happened (or even done-Yikes! not that I do a lot of bad things).
For example, my Mom's sickness and death have in s strange way given me more self reliance and confidence. I had to be her advocate with the health care system and after she passed last year I radically changed my life.
I moved out of the family house, put it up for sale, etc, etc.
The same when I got divorced 10 years ago and was spitting mad at my ex for his cowardice (long story). I went into a deep depression but emerged stronger for it.
http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I don't want to completely disagree with you AgentRouka, but, one of the things I took away from the movie, was that Mal, because of his investing in a cause and having a triumphant outcome has the confident tools to apply to up and coming obstacles that life will surely throw his way.
Is he completely healed and perfect now, no, but are any of us? He certainly has a better outlook, "We'll get through it soon enough".
I have a poster up in my classroom that says, "You can't change your past, but you CAN change your future" and a lot of my students ask me how to do that.
I tell them it means that once you've identified your mistakes you can learn from them, and you can do it differently next time, but that’s not going to happen until you try again.
That’s all Mal did, was to try again.
Platonist, Mal4Prez--
But how is the conclusion Mal reaches ACTUALLY different from how he has already acted in the series?
When we look at Mal in "Safe"... it's the same cause. Taking care of Simon and River, not leaving them to the wolves even though it would be convenient. He takes up the cause of Nandi even if it's the much more dangerous thing to do and I don't think it's because of the payment.
Without putting it into so many words, Mal is very much already actively supporting small causes "only 'cause it's the right thing to do" (Train Job).
The only difference in the movie is in the scale and in the stakes. Mal is grumpier at the beginning than he is in the series and he ends up back at series grumpy level - not throwing off Simon and River, displaying love for his ship and a "Keep flying" attitude in front of a Tam sibling. It's like the pilot episode, only with crew deaths. There is no actual hope for future improvement, if you think about it. It's all about the status quo, which is why Mal ends as he began in the movie: stuff falling off his ship and whining about it.
Unless Mal is planning on taking on higher stake causes some more after the movie, I don't see him coming away from it in any way improved beyond what he already was in the series. And as Bytemite pointed out, there is as much to be upset about in the outcome as there is to feel triumphant or self-confident about.
I don't see where Mal identifies mistakes or has in any way moved toward something he wasn't already in the series, truly. In what way will the movie experiences help him better deal with all their dead contacts, job shortages, Simon tring to tell him what to do, Inara going away again, Jayne being dissatisfied with their jobs, Zoe's grief, slowly but surely growing too old for his lifestyle? Will he suddenly be fearless in the face of love? Will he no longer get angry and take out that anger on other people?
What about it changes him for the better in a way that he wasn't before?
ETA: I don't think that he's operating on revenge and anger anymore once he's discovered the Miranda secret - but then, really, what choice to they have at that point? They're dead meat. It's only a question of going out with meaning or without. They choose the former. But it's not like Mal was overwhelmed by the rightness of the cause to actually give up everything he still had before. Nor is it like Mal has never taken on any causes since the Valley. He's just disillusioned with organised group effort, like the Independents were, and I don't think that has changed.
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