Praying?!? Sorry pal, God's busy with other worlds for the next few centuries, can I take a message?

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Friday, July 10, 2009 17:49
VIEWED: 9477
PAGE 4 of 15

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT PAGE

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 4:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
its quite a concept, that the undirected, chaotic EXPLOSION of the big bang, could create the incomprehensible ORDER and design of the universe.

Isn't it though.

Quote:
kind of like expecting the nuke dropped on hiroshima to result in a much more improved and ordered landscape

Oversimplification, thy name is Antimason.

The laughing Chrisisall

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 4:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You seem to be missing a vital point. The level of uncertainty is based on the Particles wavelength, which diminishes with mass. Black Holes are governed by Quantum Mechanical effects at the Singularity (at least in theory, it's not like anyone has gone into one to check), but they also have rather a lot of mass.

The Wavelength of an electron is barely longer than it's circumference, which is why they tend to act more like particles than waves most of the time. A Black Hole has infinite mass, therefore an infinitely short wavelength, so the level of uncertainty is lower. In fact it's probably more likely that your body will Quantum tunnel through a brick wall than a Black Hole will Quantum Tunnel to a new state.

The equation to find a particles wavelength is De Broglie's wavelength:
λ = h/m*u

Where:
λ is the Wavelength
h is Plancks constant
m is the particles mass
and u is the particles speed

The result of dividing any number by infinity should be self evident.

When you're talking about particles escaping, you aren't talking about the entire sum of the black hole's mass escaping at the same time. You're talking about particles here and there. Particles which have a small mass.

The effect of evaporation would be more pronounced in micro black holes.

And the fact remains, if you fuzz the dimensions of a point in three-dimensional space, it's no longer a point. You can still have a very high near infinite density because your volume is still going to be very small, but a black hole doesn't have to have a singularity to define it so long as it's gravitational pull is still strong enough to prevent light from escaping. And so long as light can't escape, meaning outside observers can't see within and time stops, you still have an event horizon.

Singularities signify a breakdown in general relativity, and are best addressed by quantum mechanics, where it is suggested that the singularities are not, in fact, singularities. A point smudged by quantum mechanical processes may still ACT like a singularity, because we may be talking about VERY little smudging indeed, but I argue that technically, by definition, because of whatever degree of smudging there IS, it is not one.

I don't know if this would answer your equation, but it's been hypothesized that particles escaping a black hole would have to have an infinite wavelength.

CITIZEN

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 5:05 PM

Yeah, that's Hawking Radiation, and yes, Black Holes can evaporate, and Micro Black Holes evaporate almost straight away (planck second time scales). But Black Holes evaporating is dependent on Singularities existing to begin with.

Quote:
And the fact remains, if you fuzz the dimensions of a point in three-dimensional space, it's no longer a point. You can still have a very high near infinite density, but a black hole doesn't have to have a singularity to define it so long as it's gravitational pull is still strong enough to prevent light from escaping.

You're misinterpreting what's meant about not being sure of it's location. A particle has a specific location, we just don't know where that is, so we think of it as a 'probability cloud'.

But nevertheless, a singularities mass is infinite, that means that it doesn't form a probability cloud because it's wave length is infinitely small. So it does exist within a finite point.

Quote:
Singularities signify a breakdown in general relativity, and are best addressed by quantum mechanics, where it is suggested that the singularities are not, in fact, singularities.

This rather sounds like your own interpretation of the consequences of Quantum Mechanics, and respectfully I think your interpretation is incorrect.

A particle does, in fact occupy a distinct location in the Universe, it's just because of it's wave function you can't be sure of where it is or where it's going to be at the same time. But this uncertainty doesn't apply to a singularity, because it has infinite, or even very large, mass. That means you're not 'fuzzing' the dimensions of a singularity.

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 5:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
its quite a concept, that the undirected, chaotic EXPLOSION of the big bang, could create the incomprehensible ORDER and design of the universe.

Thing is, I don't see ANY "order" or "design" to the universe. The universe has about as much order and design as a cloud has a face. If you're looking to see it as ordered, you'll no doubt find it so, simply by ignoring any data that don't fit your preconceived conclusion. That's very typical of ideology, and the complete antithesis of scientific inquiry.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 5:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
That's very typical of ideology, and the complete antithesis of scientific inquiry.

There's a lot of big words there; we're not but humble pirates...

The laughing Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 5:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, I don't see ANY "order" or "design" to the universe. The universe has about as much order and design as a cloud has a face. If you're looking to see it as ordered, you'll no doubt find it so, simply by ignoring any data that don't fit your preconceived conclusion. That's very typical of ideology, and the complete antithesis of scientific inquiry.

There's order in the universe, the same as there's order in the arrangements of London Streets. The lie is comparing the order of London streets to those of a planned city. That is the order of things disparately finding equilibrium, and someone actually artificially creating it.

HERO

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, I don't see ANY "order" or "design" to the universe.

Ignore the platypus and you'll see it all make sense for you.

"...egg-laying, venomous, duck-billed, beaver-tailed, otter-footed mammal"
H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 5:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
The lie is comparing the order of London streets to those of a planned city.

Thanks Cit, that had me goin'.

The laughing Chrisisall

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 5:54 PM

Quote:
You're misinterpreting what's meant about not being sure of it's location. A particle has a specific location, we just don't know where that is, so we think of it as a 'probability cloud'.

But nevertheless, a singularities mass is infinite, that means that it doesn't form a probability cloud because it's wave length is infinitely small. So it does exist within a finite point.

A singularity's DENSITY is infinite, not it's mass. It's not the mass part of the situation you're proposing that's causing the singularity, it's the VOLUME. A point has no volume. A point is a singularity. Put mass in it, and density = mass/volume = number/zero = infinity.

If mass inside of a point is not in fact within the point because of quantum mechanical processes...

And I still think you're misinterpretting that equation of yours. The particles in question in the blackhole are not the sum mass of the black hole, but in this case would be whatever particles are emitted. Even if I'm mistaken (and I'll probably go look that up), black holes do not have infinite mass, so if you plug in a 3 solar mass black hole (or larger) into that equation, you'd return a non-zero number. A small number, maybe, very high energy particle, but a number none-the-less.

No one knows whether particles in a black hole have a wavelength, but the emitted ones do. If quantum tunneling, that governs Hawking radiation, requires for a particle entering and emerging from a barrier to have a wavelength, then particles in the blackhole must have a wavelength. And if they have a wavelength, they have a probability cloud... And if you have a probablity cloud for a particle in a singularity, you are fuzzing the singularity by making the volume no longer a defined point. The singularity is no longer one volumeless point in space. It begins to have a volume that all of it's particles could occur in.

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 1, 2009 5:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, I don't see ANY "order" or "design" to the universe.

Ignore the platypus and you'll see it all make sense for you.

"...egg-laying, venomous, duck-billed, beaver-tailed, otter-footed mammal"
H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

Sorry - ignoring uncomfortable truths that don't easily fit into a category isn't in my nature. I'm neither religious or Republican.

What is it about the platypus that has you confused? Is it the egg laying? Aren't there reptiles who give birth to live young, and others that lay eggs? Ditto amphibians and fish. Is it the beaver tail, which is actually a Platypus tail, or the otter feet, which are really only SIMILAR to otter feet? Is it the venom? Don't other orders have both venomous and non-venomous members? Is it the "bill"? Would you lump oxen and chameleons in the same group, since both have "horns"?

Granted, the platypus is an odd critter, but I don't find any one particular thing about it that points to any kind of creator or designer, unless you're talking about a very, very, VERY stoned one.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT PAGE