Socialism

POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Monday, August 26, 2024 16:07
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KPO

Friday, June 26, 2009 9:52 PM

It wasn't an assertion it was logic, so I've nothing to back up really. But, since it's easy to -

You want me to link social welfare to another philosophy in a few easy steps, like you did to reach socialism?

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_welfare

"Accordingly, many people refer to welfare within a context of social justice"

Now here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice

"It is a part of Catholic social teaching"

And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_social_teaching

Catholic social teaching, a tenet of Catholicism. To quote: "Catholic social teaching encompasses aspects of Catholic doctrine"

Heads should roll

CITIZEN

Friday, June 26, 2009 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
It wasn't an assertion it was logic, so I've nothing to back up really. But, since it's easy to -

You want me to link social welfare to another philosophy in a few easy steps, like you did to reach socialism?

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_welfare

"Accordingly, many people refer to welfare within a context of social justice"

Now here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice

"It is a part of Catholic social teaching"

And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_social_teaching

Catholic social teaching, a tenet of Catholicism. To quote: "Catholic social teaching encompasses aspects of Catholic doctrine"

Heads should roll

Well, if that's the progression you call logical, I don't doubt you have nothing to back up your 'logic'. Social Democracy is a form of Socialism, and Social Welfare is an integral part of Social Democracy.

Your progression on the other hand is far more tenuous, for instance no where in your link is it shown that Government Social Welfare programs integral, or even a part of Catholic social teaching. Seems your 'logic' is entirely based on equivocation.

In fact turning your argument around on you, all those things you claimed were "capitalist" in a previous thread aren't capitalist at all. Your logic does a better job of dismissing your own arguments than they do mine.

EDIT:
Also, you yourself made the case that Socialism was all about social equality rather than "economics", now you turn around and say programs of social equality can't be called socialist?

So what exactly is socialist in your view? It can't be state control of the means of production, because Fascism also shows that, and Fascism isn't Socialist in the least.

KPO

Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:08 AM

Quote:
Social Democracy is a form of Socialism, and Social Welfare is an integral part of Social Democracy.

Social justice is an integral part of Catholic doctrine, and Social Welfare is a form of Social justice. Hey, I'm making the same links you are!

Quote:
Well, if that's the progression you call logical

This whole process was illogical (social welfare isn't catholic by definition) - I was copying you and coming up with a contradictory result to show you that. You obviously missed what the logic was that I was referring to, go back to my first post that you knee-jerk dismissed and try to find it.

Quote:
Also, you yourself made the case that Socialism was all about social equality rather than "economics"

I suggested that socialism was a system for organising* production that was useless because its primary interest was achieving social justice, and not in making things productive. And that social justice could be achieved to a large extent another way, through social welfare, which is best funded by an economy whose businesses are capitalist, like Denmark, Sweden, Germany, France.

*Organising it by putting it in state/collective hands, essentially.

Heads should roll

BYTEMITE

Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:22 AM

Religious socialism is socialism too, in my opinion. All of them are about trying to help the less fortunate. Unfortunately, socialism in some cases has been subverted as a control mechanism, and also as an excuse for leaders to take power and never give it back. I denounce that sort of false socialism.

FUZION

Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:45 AM

Quote:
You're actually describing Communism there Sarge

The term "communism" is generally used to refer to an ideology which is a subset of socialism, or to refer to specific socialist societies which emerged in the 20th century. Either way, usage of the term "socialism" is correct.

Quote:
I always thought social welfare states were considered somewhat socialist

Um no, the modern welfare state has roots dating back to classical liberal thinkers such as John Stuart Mill and even Adam Smith. Specifically, people started realizing that certain factors prevent equality of opportunity from being evenly distributed and the more intellectually honest liberals began to notice that these factors are very prevalent in society and that someone should do something about them.

Certainly, there was socialist influence but primarily in the area of the policy rather than ideology.

ANTIMASON

Saturday, June 27, 2009 2:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Cite one reputable source which supports this interpretation.

Every definition of Socialism I can find stresses either state or cooperative ownership of the means of production and either curtailment or abolishment of private property.

you mean like General Motors? like AIG? like Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac? is it cooperative ownership when the government subsidizes an industry? this is insane

BYTEMITE

Saturday, June 27, 2009 2:18 AM

Did they advocate government administering social programs? On the level that a social welfare state does? And the centralization of certain business essential to national stability like the mixed economy that most social welfare states have?

I admit that "liberal" means to be giving and generous to the less fortunate. I don't know if the term accurately describes the philosophy when it was invented...

But when we say social welfare state, we are describing a certain system of government that did not exist at the time of the development of liberalism as an ideology, nor one that the fathers of liberalism could have predicted, let alone advocated. I think it's perhaps inaccurate to say a social welfare state stems from a liberal ideology. However, liberal ideologies can promote aspects of a social welfare state.

ANTIMASON

Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:28 AM

we could use the term progressive, since they coopted the word liberal to hide their totalitarian/communist leanings

FUZION

Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Did they advocate government administering social programs? On the level that a social welfare state does? And the centralization of certain business essential to national stability like the mixed economy that most social welfare states have?

I admit that "liberal" means to be giving and generous to the less fortunate. I don't know if the term accurately describes the philosophy when it was invented...

But when we say social welfare state, we are describing a certain system of government that did not exist at the time of the development of liberalism as an ideology, nor one that the fathers of liberalism could have predicted, let alone advocated. I think it's perhaps inaccurate to say a social welfare state stems from a liberal ideology. However, liberal ideologies can promote aspects of a social welfare state.

As I stated, the modern welfare state has roots in classical liberal theory, in the sense that it is based off essentially the same ethical and sociological framework. However, the progression of the idea becomes particularly apparent as you read some later liberals, perhaps between 1870 and 1940; maybe even a bit later.

To be a liberal does not mean anything remotely similar to "be giving and generous to the less fortunate". Liberalism is based around equality of opportunity. This is just as true today as it was in the days of classical liberalism. The primary difference is that there came a time when people slowly started realizing that unbridled competition doesn't actually create equality of opportunity. Then the more intellectually honest ones realized the public domain has to make up the difference. For example, despite Adam Smith's reputation as the posterboy for division of labour, if you actually read The Wealth of Nations you will find he thought that the division of labour can create excessively repetitive tasks that dull personal development even as it improves efficiency, and argues that unless government prevents it the mass of the people will become mentally stunted by this process.

In other words, they realized that if something in society (eg. systemic, institutionalized forms of oppression) prevented people from realizing their freedoms that the government was obligated to fix it. As time went on it became increasingly apparent that these factors are in fact very common in the modern age, so liberals increasingly called for state intervention to do things like pay for public fire departments, regulate the water supply, etc. This was a very logical step for liberalism to take and it's not really until the later 20th century that people started claiming that these are not liberal positions. You see, back when theorists became increasingly aware of problems in society which prevent equality of opportunity, a bunch of them just shut their ears and yelled really loudly.

To summarize, the core values and methods of liberalism have remained largely intact during the transition from classical to modern liberalism and the welfare state is a product of the theory's adjustment to a world of new facts and ideas.

KWICKO

Saturday, June 27, 2009 4:01 AM

Quote:

What's the essence of Social economics? Central Government control? What's the essence of Capitalist Economics? Government staying out of the way? In which case surely that makes regulation of markets socialist by their very definition?

So I take it that Geezer will agree that the U.S. system isn't any more "capitalist" than some of those European systems are "socialist". We're all a mish-mash, and some of the systems that seem to work BEST are the same ones that are geared more towards "socialism" than the U.S. is.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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