Map of the Verse discussion
POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 08:33
VIEWED: 49136
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I think I see what you're saying, and how you see what I was saying.
I don't have a problem with your view.
An additional possibility for calculation (since we're trying to simplify things) is something I just thougth of. Consider if Red and Georgia were dually orbiting each other, without White's presence. The barycenter woulod still be White's position. Each of Red and Georgia require adequate velocity to not have orbit decay, to maintain gravitational distance.
Now add in White Sun, and the velocity required to not have Georgia or Red fall into White's grav well.
Should we just add the 2 velocities to approximate the real world?
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I reality the barycentre would be shifted toward Georgia because it is more massive.
In our simplified terms (assuming that the masses of Red Sun and Georgia were equal), the Barycentre of their theoretical binary system, would be at the position of White Sun.
Assuming we keep the orbits as they are, and just solve for the three masses, you get an orbital velocity of 8260m/s.
For curiosities sake I ran a few simulations of variations of the White Sun, Red Sun, Georgia trinary system to see how they came out.
White Sun's orbit is in Yellow, Red Sun's is Red, Georgia's is Blue:
Georgia orbiting White Sun alone
Red Sun orbiting White Sun alone
Georgia and Red Sun orbiting White Sun, assuming balanced masses
The orbits using figures given
Realistically the orbit is completely unstable. It's somewhat stable if we assume the masses of Georgia and Red Sun systems cancel out, in which case we get an exaggerated elliptic for both stars centred on White Sun. Since these are orbiting at the same mean distance from the centre of Gravity, they should be at the same velocity, and therefore shouldn't collide, even though their orbits cross.
A quick word on the instability. Since Georgia is more massive, the barycentre of White Sun, Red Sun and Georgia, will lie between White Sun and Georgia. Red Sun will then have a slower orbital velocity, because it's distance is greater and the apparrent mass is the same.
The result is that the bary centre gradually wanders closer to Georgia, and away from Red Sun, it's a feedback mechanism that sees Georgia and White Sun become a closely looping unstable binary system, and Red Sun ejected from the system altogether. Note this isn't because the bodies are being acted on by gravity from different masses, but from different distances.
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I can understand that Red and Georgia cannot have stabel orbits around White, being different masses, according to astrodynamics.
Let's go with the fictional concept of a stable orbit. What do you think is the best guess for velocity and duration for Red & Georgia? Do you think Kalidasa and Blue Sun orbital calculations should consider the mass of all three to be the central body mass, while ignoring the effects of nearer Georgia and Red, or just consider White to be the sole central mass for the calculation?
What figures do you think are best, for the sciency version of figures?
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I can understand that Red and Georgia cannot have stabel orbits around White, being different masses, according to astrodynamics.
Let's go with the fictional concept of a stable orbit. What do you think is the best guess for velocity and duration for Red & Georgia? Do you think Kalidasa and Blue Sun orbital calculations should consider the mass of all three to be the central body mass, while ignoring the effects of nearer Georgia and Red, or just consider White to be the sole central mass for the calculation?
What figures do you think are best, for the sciency version of figures?
I think it would probably be best to ignore the difficulties, and assume that the Georgia and Red Sun system's gravity cancel out, (since they're on opposite sides of the system), and that only White Sun's gravity is pertinent.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Based upont the revised information above, we can now review the itineraries of the Verse.
Let's start with BDM Serenity.
Lilac to Beaumonde to Haven to Training House to Haven to Miranda to Mr. Universe's place.
Beaumonde in 15th orbital ring around Kalidasa, which is 121Au from White Sun. Beaumonde is about 13.4Au from Kalidasa Sun, so Beaumonde's farthest distance from White Sun is about 134.4Au.
Lilac, second moon on New Canaan in 2nd orbital ring around Blue Sun, which is 180Au from White Sun. New Canaan is about 2.39Au from Blue Sun, so the nearest distance to White Sun that New Canaan and Lilac get is about 177.6Au.
Therefore the shortest distance that Lilac and Beaumonde can get is about 43.2Au, or about 23-30 hours at max Serenity acceleration.
Haven, 1st moon on Deadwood in 7th orbital ring around Blue Sun. Deadwood is about 14.0Au from Blue Sun, so nearest disance to White Sun would be 166Au. Shortest distance from Beaumonde to Haven would be about 31.6Au, or about 20-26 hours at max Serenity accel/decel.
Miranda orbiting Burnham around Blue Sun isn't much distance from Haven. Miranda about 3.9Au from Burnham, and Burnham about 23.4Au from Blue Sun (8th orbital ring). So nearest that Miranda gets to Haven is about 5.5Au and farthest apart is about 41.3Au (about the saem as Lilac to Beaumonde closest range).
So, does this seem reasonable? Or is the Beaumonde distance out of wack? Does it seem reasonable that it took a day to get from Lilac to Beaumonde, and another day to get back to Haven (a short ways from Lilac)?
I didn't get that impression from film and scripts, how about you?
The travels to and from Training House are not a problem, nor are trips to and from Miranda.
Lemming has admitted that not all of the Map of the Verse is vetted within the series and BDM travel itinerary, so should we decide that this placement of Beaumonde in the Kalidasa System is one of these anomolies?
It would seem that if Beaumonde was in the Blue Sun system, or at least the same system as either Lilac or Haven, then the travel tiems would seem more in line with what the BDM showed.
Anybody else?
One wrinkle to consider is the upgrades to Serenity after TLB and before BDM. Apparently the proceeds from the fencing of the Lassiter paid for all the Serenity upgrades, like more blinking lights around the cockpit, and the new mule. Did they include speed/performance upgrades? Is their travel time quicker now? If so, it's also possible to consider one of the moons of Dragon's Egg as a
training House location.
Still seems clear that Beaumonde location is out of tolerance, it should be in Blue Sun System, based upon all BDH references to it.
Also, wanted to point out a reference I keep forgetting.
In Serenity Vis Comp (written by some Joss guy), on pg 114 Jayne says "Not one day ago" Mal was ready to get rid of River. This is after Training House, referring to Maidenhead on Beaumonde. So then from Beaumonde to Haven (and hours spent there) to Training House takes less than a day, and certainly less than 2 days. This line does not end up in the screen version.
There is also River's line on Miranda, that it will take 4 hours to get to Mr Universe's place from Miranda - this line also does not end up on film.
From Beaumonde in Kalidasa System to Mr. Universe's Comm Station is about 240Au distance, and adding a flyby of Haven in Blue Sun System makes a minimum of 420Au distance. Even if Serenity were able to travel at the Speed of Light, and achieve that velocity very quicky, that's still about 55-60 hours of travel (or 2.5 days). Not even counting all the hours of screen activity. Take a "couple hours" each way from Haven to Training House, this makes 60-65 hours of travel, with Speed of Light Travel. If only half the Speed of Light, this is 115-125 hours. This does not mesh with the time period written by Joss in Jayne's line.
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Just announced today, astronomers have found the first Retrograde Planet, orbiting in the opposite direction of it's star's rotation.
Named WASP-17, it has half the mass of Jupiter but twice the size.
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It looks like I have forgotten about Space Bazaar from Message, and the empty rock from Trash. They feel by the wayside and I forgot to get back to them.
Empty rock had gravity enough for Mal and YoSaffBrig to fight and not fly off planet, and there was some vegitation I think, so terraforming had been done. "Empty" must have been a relative term rather than absolute, for the terraforming crews alone made up 5,000 people. But apparently not so populated that Alliance has a base there. And, of course, not far from Bellerophon.
Space Bazaar does not really look like Core to me, anybody else? Tracey & Womack likely came from the Silverhold Colonies, and the Bazaar is 2 days ride from St Albans, so maybe the Bazaar is in Red Sun system.
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The barren moon might be one of the moons of Santo in the Qin Shi Huang system, both are sparsely population, considered. Tethys in particular only has 27,000 people. The Qin Shi Huang system is a protostar system in the White Sun system, but being that the crew has visited Santos before, apparently it's not close enough to the core to give them much alarm.
Or, it could have happened on some rock out in the Halo asteriod belt that someone tried to terraform, then abandoned.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The barren moon might be one of the moons of Santo in the Qin Shi Huang system, both are sparsely population, considering. Tethys in particular, only has 27,000 people. The Qin Shi Huang system is a protostar system in the White Sun system, but being that the crew has visited Santos before, apparently it's not close enough to the core to give them much alarm.
Or, it could have happened on some rock out in the Halo asteriod belt that someone tried to terraform, then abandoned.
Here are my thoughts so far on the "empty rock" of Trash.
The episode spans 72 hours from meeting Monty on the empty rock to Mal nekkid in the desert. I conjure about 2hours on Bellerophon, doing the heist, latching YoSaff into the garbage, locating nekkid Mal in the desert. I conjure about 2 hours of Mal with Monty, then Serenity arrives, then Mal interacts with the crew before re-introducing her to the crew where she explains her gig and they start to travel with some direction. So roughly estimate 68 hours of travel time to arrive on Bellerophon, planning (for the heist) could be done enroute.
Accel and deccel to 2.5Au/hr cruising speed is about 20 hours covering 25Au, or else about 17 hours to cover about 20Au. Another 48 hours at 2.5Au/hr gets another 120Au (120Au + 25Au = 145Au). Or 51 hours at 2.5Au/hr is 127.5Au (127.5 + 20Au = ~147Au). Total of 145-147Au distance, unless my conjuring is off - anybody think I estimated times wrong?
If it is about 145Au to get from the empty rock to Bellerophon, then Red Sun system and Georgia System (and the Core) are both too close (max of 105Au from Bellerophon). If Bellerophon is in the quadrant near Georgia System, then Kalidasa System is centered 140Au away, so that's a good candidate, and Blue Sun would be about Centered about 160Au away, so Deadwood could be about 145Au. If Bellerophon is nearer to Red Sun System, then Blue Sun is too far away, and Kalidasa is too close, so we have just narrowed the obrital position of Bellerophon.
So now to look in those for low-populated rocks which are terraformed.
If the preceding episode was OiS (original episode sequence), then they went to New Melbourne about 3 days after booting Jubal. So Red Sun System was where they were, and Kalidasa is next nearest, and our top candidate for Empty Rock locale.
If the preceding episode was War Stories (rearranged episode sequence), then they were at Ezra at the center of Georgia System, and so next nearest would be Blue Sun System, and our top candidate for Empty Rock location.
It'll be a few days for me to look up those, so input for those would be cool. I'm assuming it's not large, as well as being sparsely populated, so the moons like you found in Core would be about right, just find the same thing in other systems. Would not be asteroids - they would not be terraformed with all those collisions in the asteroid belts.
Unless somebody can point out errors in my reasoning.
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Similar reasoning for Space Bazaar.
Mal says it's not a 2 day ride to St Alban's after leaving the Bazaar.
48 hours makes it about 95-100Au distance. Georgia System is too far away (minimum of 122Au), as is Blue Sun System. Kalidasa could be, with 75Au maximum distance and conjuring that "2 days" would mean 40 hours. Also, the far side of the Core, near Persephone, could be about that distance for Albion, Ariel, Bellerophon, Valentine.
Last episode was Trash, where they left Bellerophon, so that area seems a good candidate.
By "that area" I mean Albion, Ariel, Valentine if they are on the same side of White Sun as Bellerophon, and the space around them or Bellerophon. I am clarifying this in June 2010, sorry for the delayed edit.
Any problems seen there?
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