Limits of State Power
POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Sunday, December 14, 2025 21:53
VIEWED: 37205
PAGE 21 of 36
YOu simply make it hard for other businesses to compete, and in a completely self-regulating market, that means you undercut them when they move into your neighborhood.
If you're a miner, and you've been mining your whole life, and that's the only trade you know, and all of a sudden your boss decides to change policy, change work hours, safety procedures, etc. etc.
you have the recourse to go somewhere else and mine....taht will only cost you the money to relocate and the loss of the place you always thought of as home.
But maybe you can't right now....maybe you just have to go a couple more months, just to keep your head above water.
Maybe your boss comes at you with a new contract, that says if you work for me, you can never work for another mining company, and maybe, out of little reasonable recourse, in such a time of hardship, you sign.
or maybe the other big mining companies have done the same thing to their policies...and you won't see a better shake over there.
Then what?
I guess it's time to retrain into some new field at 40 or so.
Do you really think this shit is self-correcting?
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If you witness a crime and don't attempt to stop it, are you causing harm?
I'd agree with the "not paying someone well." Where else are they going to get money? You can have three jobs that don't pay well and still be in a bad spot.
Food... People can get food, although you have to not be too picky about where and what. Garbage cans are a good place, but is that really okay? "Eh, you're hungry, go eat out of a garbage can?"
And if you don't provide medical care for blue collar workers (who get injured more often than any other kind), you end up paying MORE for a simple injury simply on account of missed hours versus the medical bills. At least, that's what I heard. Where did I hear that... Was it in Hazwoper training? Hmm.
Is the point we're heading for the conversation about if people really need these things, they can always steal it?
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You've had Hazwoper????
So have my peeps!
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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I missed Hazwoper by the skin of my twitchy pulmonary endothelium. 
(asthma)
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Silence is consent.
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Quote:
Do you really think this shit is self-correcting?
While not taught in public schools, american history is very clear on this - it WOULD have been, save for the factor of Government backing the corporations all the way up to and including using the goddamn airforce to drop bombs on those pesky miners that wanted their fair share.
One of my ancestors, Sid Hatfield, fought against the corporate goons in the Battle of Matewan, and was later assassinated with a nod and wink, rather than an investigation, sparking the Battle of Blair Mountain, the bloodiest confrontation on american soil since the civil war - and good ole Billy Mitchell helped out by dropping bombs on them, basically you had a bunch of miners trying to fight the corpie goons, AND the freakin army, and it was a slaughter.
As for many of the corpie goons and their eventual fate, lemme direct you to how the US Dept of "Justice" was formed and the Anti-Pinkerton act, which was in direct consequence to the Gov more or less forming the USDOJ out of those very corporate goons.
Don't you think that sans Government and the whole damn might of the US Military backing them up, things might have gone somewhat differently ?
Unions and Labor collectives CAN fight and win out against corpie goons, in the end it bankrupts a corp to try - but they cannot do so against the Corp, the Gov, and the Military, and if they COULD, damn straight they might as well just take over, unfortunately starting the whole cycle anew once corruption sets in.
Anyhows, google that stuff, and you'll have a fair idea of why NO ONE in their right mind trusts the US Gov to protect workers rights, they ain't NEVER done it on a scale worth the mention, in over 150 years, if not longer.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think we've already agreed that the capitalist drive to raise profits winds up with lowering labor costs as much as possible. There's no incentive to provide anything more than starvation wages... or even less...
You keep stating that folks in capitalist economies are starving to death in droves due to low wages as if it's established fact. I'd like to see a cite, please. Both that wages tend to go down under capitalist economies and that starvation increases in any particular country as capitalism increases.
You also continue to ignore the fact that folks in communist and some socialist economies have starved and do starve to death because the close ties between government and economy allows politicians to withhold food to large groups of people for political gain. North Korea has starved 10% of it's population in the last few years, as I've noted above. I doubt you can find a capitalist country with such an egregious record.
BTW, sorry I'm not in the discussion more, but I had a 500 mile drive from Montana to Seattle today and will be flying home to Virginia all day tomorrow.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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"You also continue to ignore the fact that folks in communist and some socialist economies have starved and do starve to death ..."
We've gone though this at least three times already.
Comparing apples to apples:
China v India
Kerala v West Bengal (home to Kolkata, formerly Calcutta)
Canada, or Denmark, or Sweden, or Switzerland or ... v the US 
Looking at countries that have been 'allowed' to develop their own economies without US hindrance (unlike, for example Cuba) or help (like Japan), it appears overall those countries and regions which are socialist have an overall higher standard of living.
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Silence is consent.
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Wherever you find corruption, you can find people abusing other people. I don't think anyone has said that Communist nations like Russia and China weren't corrupt, or that the very structure of their government, the one party system with centralized nearly authoritarian control over the economy wasn't a breeding ground for nationalistic zealotry and corruption.
Seems to me the argument SigynM is making is one of poor workers, inflation, credit card debt, and faulty bank loans. She is not denying that starvation occurs in other systems, but is troubled that this system, capitalism, seems not as inclined to help and almost views the needy as being at fault.
But that could be putting words in her mouth.
Yep, I took Hazwoper. I think they covered business costs of health insurance versus non coverage during the segment on non-waste hazards.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Canada, or Denmark, or Sweden, or Switzerland or ... v the US
Canada, Denmark, et. al. all have capitalist economies. They're not Socialist or Communist economies at all. The most they are is welfare states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state
Communist economies - now that the Soviet Union has tanked - are China, Cuba, North Korea. Any more you can think of?
The Socialist Party U.K.- who should know who's Socialist and who isn't - says that there are no Socialist governments in Europe; that all governments have "remained capitalist through and through."
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/News2Frame.htm?socialistcountries.htm
So in comparing the U.S. to Sweden, etc. you're comparing apples to apples, and proving that capitalism works.
Thanks for your endorsement of Capitalism.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:Oh, fuck you Geezer. I could cite nation after nation and incident after incident, but you with your background, of all people, know the stats as well as I do. So stop playing stupid, since you were an active player in the whole deal.
You keep stating that folks in capitalist economies are starving to death in droves due to low wages as if it's established fact. I'd like to see a cite, please. Both that wages tend to go down under capitalist economies and that starvation increases in any particular country as capitalism increases.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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