Limits of State Power
POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Sunday, December 14, 2025 21:53
VIEWED: 37205
PAGE 20 of 36
uh... and how do you do that (without using force?)
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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Well, in a capitalistic system, you start with a population that hasn't been treated fairly in the past. Say, blacks. Then rhetorically, let's say that they just naturally congregate together as opposed to being forced, which they might, because they all share the perspective as having been abused.
Because they've been oppressed in the past, they have little education to start with, and therefore little representation power in the government you've established.
So then you can make sure, through economic means, that they only have very shitty schools and very shitty job opportunities near the places they live, and no money to draw upon to move anywhere better. Presto, you've created a slum. And some of those people in that slum, since they're ALL competing for limited resources, they're gonna go hungry.
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you use force of the law...plain and simple
the law can be as simple as being there to protect the property rights of those who own land, or howabout water.
Say you were in California and you spent everything you had to get there back in the early 1900's, and suppose the only work there was to do was exploitive.
Now there arn't laws in a libertarian society about forcing you not to unionize, but there aren't any laws saying that a company can't fire you because it all of a sudden doesn't like how you're spending your off hours.
What about pay docking? Don't like it, don't work there, ain't nobody holding a gun to your head.
What about blacklisting?
you sure as hell don't have to work for a certain person, but he just happens to demand that everybody that works for him submit to a strip search everyday before leaving work.
Say you're in a little town out in the middle of bumfuck nowhere. Say you have some medical issue. Say the Pharmasist doesn't like black folks. He doesn't have to help you, and it's not like HE"s responsible for making you sick.
Want to try to force him to give you the medicine?
Go ahead, beat him up and take it, or steal it. Who is the law going to protect?
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By simply not having any alternatives. If the only jobs available are for starvation wages, what are your options? Start a business? Who will buy from you? Trek off into the wilderness and try to scratch a living from the land?
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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LOL... in that sense you're "free" to defy the law and commit murder as well. The nature of government control is punitive.
Exactly. You break the law by commiting murder and you face serious consequences. You break the law by wearing a seatbelt, first of all you will probably not get caught, and if you do it's a slap on the wrist - which is nothing compared to the serious potential consequences of crashing without a seat belt. When you've already got this threat hanging over you, the threat of government punishment carries negligible weight. This is my argument: negligible weight implies negligible government control (I actually think the psychology is a little more complex than this, but for now I just want you to see my argument).
What the law actually does effectively on this occasion is remind you of the seriousness of the REAL threat. And in this respect it is just like a government warning sign.
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Signs promoting seat belt usage don't bother me in the slightest. I'm in favor of them in fact.
So am I, if they're equally effective as the actual law.
Heads should roll
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
you use force of the law...plain and simple
Exactly.
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
By simply not having any alternatives. If the only jobs available are for starvation wages, what are your options? Start a business? Who will buy from you? Trek off into the wilderness and try to scratch a living from the land?
So, how do I, as the hypothetical person "keeping" them in this condition, ensure that they stay there?
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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"There"? You mean, physically in that place?
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
"There"? You mean, physically in that place?
Yeah. Or in that condition. I'm trying to figure out what is being done, what action is being taken to "force" these people to stay put.
See, the reason I'm asking, is that I suspect this is the same thing you've done before, where you're trying to say that "not helping" someone is the same as harming them. That not feeding someone is the same as forcing them to starve. That not paying someone well is the same as forcing them to live in poverty. That not providing medical care is the same as hitting them with clubs.
I know there are ways to harm someone without using direct physical force. Slander, blackmail, harassment, etc - but those things require some action, some deliberate attempt to harm. They're also already illegal. But I sense you're wanting to make a crime out of "not helping", and that, to me, seems like a really bad precedent.
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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I think we've already agreed that the capitalist drive to raise profits winds up with lowering labor costs as much as possible. There's no incentive to provide anything more than starvation wages... or even less, if they're faced with a labor surplus and can afford to use people up and toss 'em away.
And I think I've made a great case for capitalism turning into monopolism, just strictly from economic forces. (In order to create a competing business from the ground up you'd have to re-create everything that gives the monopoly its enhanced efficiency.)
So, the answer to your question How do you keep people in place? is: trans-national capitalism and free trade agreements. It doesn't matter if you're living in Beijing or Milwaukee or Stuttgart. Sooner or later, you will be competing with Vietnam and the Marianas.
Weren't we at one time talking about cities and counties competing for business with tax giveaways? Have you ever seen ads to attract international business? Its the same deal. (I saw this in a magazine BTW) Try Ireland. With a well- educated population, low taxes, and political stability, you can look forward to terrific profits year after year. Seriously.
Because- no matter where you go, there they are. 
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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