Limits of State Power
POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Sunday, December 14, 2025 21:53
VIEWED: 37205
PAGE 19 of 36
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge, maybe you can tell me this... you seem so worried about democracy, the power of the majority to limit a minority's freedoms.
True enugh, but what about the power of the minority to limit the majority's freedoms?
Same thing. No group, however large or small, should have unlimited rights to use violence to have their way.
Quote:
are you free to sell yourself into slavery?
Heh.. sure, in the strictest sense you can sign whatever contract you want. But your "owner" would be something of a dupe, since there's no way a court would uphold such a contract.
Thing is Signym, I actually agree with your notion that no one, government or private entity, should be allowed to violate our rights. Where we disagree is in your inability to distinguish forced actions from voluntary actions. You have this notion of "economic coercion" that completely ignores that distinction.
When you, as a business owner, fire someone, you're not forcing them to be unemployed. You're just not paying them anymore. If a restaurant refuses to serve you, they're not forcing you to starve. They're just not giving you food.
On the other hand, laws are all about force. If I choose to not to wear a seatbelt and a cop sees me, he'll pull me over. If I refuse to stop, he'll chase me, probably enlisting help and force me to stop. If I don't pay the fine, they'll put out a warrant for my arrest. If I don't do as they tell me when I'm arrested, they'll beat me up. If I manage to break free and run, they'll shoot me.
The only way a business can actually force you to do something is if they hire thugs, and that's already blatantly illegal. The problem is, they can outsource their violence to a service who will do it for a fee. That service is called "government". That's what needs to stop.
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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"... there's no way a court would uphold such a contract."
A state entity, to be sure, with the power of law and enforcement (guns and force) behind it.
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Silence is consent.
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not following, rue. What are you getting at?
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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It's obvious. Force can be used to uphold rights.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:
Though of course you could be arguing for getting rid of all traffic law?
Actually, I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea.
Case in point, this thread - which you might find informative in other ways as well.
Anarchist Traffic Control?
http://fireflyfan.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=36987
I'd settle for ending traffic law enforcement as a source of Revenue, however, since that is the primary vehicle for corruption of the process.
Quote:
Contract???? What contract? One side is free to do whatever they want, and the other side has to bend over a take it? That's not a contract.
I've touched on that a time or two, it being one form of what one could in a sideways sorta way call "Government" that even Anarchists are partial to.
Contract Enforcement.
The CEA would be in function similar to the Bonding Authority from Drakes' Hammerverse, basically holding both parties to the signed Contract up to and including using outright military force to do so if needs be.
The example I posited before, say, the bank changes the payment date on your loan without notifying you - the CEA brings you the marble counter from their front office as a penalty fee, but you're still responsible for paying the loan, at the original payment dates and schedule.
Just imagine how the dynamic of such "agreements" would change if you could have force initiated against the bank or corporation which violated it against you, instead of having to depend on a court they control, interpreting rules they paid politicians to write in their favor ?
Believe me, the idea of the CEA inflicing $181,000.00 in punitive damage to Citybank is far more pleasant than the $275,000.00 in legal fees it would cost me to ENFORCE the provision they broke* against them.
-Frem
*(They breached a provision that constituted breach of the whole, and invalidated the entire mortgage agreement, and did so intentionally and with malice aforethough, because they KNEW they could make it more expensive to fight them.)
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Also worth reposting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_law
Yes, it sounds contradictory, but it ain't.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It's obvious. Force can be used to uphold rights.
Hmmm..OK
Is that what you're getting out of my posts? That I think all use of force by the government is wrong?
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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Pretty much.
Also, that the only "force" that counts is weaponry or imprisonment. But somehow, keeping people in a starvation situation is not.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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How do you "keep" a person in a starvation situation without using force?
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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