Limits of State Power
POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Sunday, December 14, 2025 21:53
VIEWED: 37205
PAGE 18 of 36
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
You see, the thing about a seat belt law is that it doesn't control - it just provokes and reminds lazy minds (ie. human ones). One can quite easily defy it if one chooses to.
LOL... in that sense you're "free" to defy the law and commit murder as well. The nature of government control is punitive.
Quote:
I thought of another example of legitimate state intervention. Let's say you are driving late at night on a long journey, and you see a government funded sign reading: 'Tired? Take a break.
This is interesting, because it seems that you don't see a difference between a suggestion and a law. Signs promoting seat belt usage don't bother me in the slightest. I'm in favor of them in fact.
Do you honestly not see a difference?
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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I'm not exactly sure why, without citing any specific thing I've said, you would suggest that I don't take Franklin's words to heart.
And if we just take my example of predatory lending, I would suggest to you that liberty can be curtailed by legal business just as effectively as it can by government.
The kid stuck with the insane interest rate is at liberty to either tread water, or ruin his credit, which can affect even his ability to rent.
.....
Me personally, i'm not sure about seat-belt laws. As you say, you should not be allowed to be reckless in society...so does that mean that it should be illegal for you to drive your kids to school, unstrapped(them). Is that a decision for the parent to make? What about Christian science versus medicine? Parent or state? What constitutes abuse, versus freedom?
edit to ad, that I thought about posting something along the lines of what sygm said about the cost to everybody around a person who dies because he chose not to wear a seatbelt.
I'm not a hundred percent confident in that reasoning, because everything could be curtailed, using that as an excuse. People should have a right to take risks. Still, a day-to-day risk that as has been suggested, is more about negligence than intentional thrill seaking, and can have an enoromous expense, is in a grey area for me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
... you don't drive up auto insurance, and your family is not depending on your income or your stability...
Just to be clear, when I say that the government should stop people who put others in danger, I'm not talking about secondary and tertiary nonsense like insurance rates or 'personal entanglements'. I don't expect the government to guarantee me low insurance rates, a thriving economy or nice weather. And I certainly don't want them involved in my personal relationships.
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
I'm not exactly sure why, without citing any specific thing I've said, you would suggest that I don't take Franklin's words to heart.
Well, I was kidding mostly, thus the wink.
It's largely a matter of intepretation, depends on how "essential" you consider the liberty lost and how "temporary" the safety gained.
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The kid stuck with the insane interest rate is at liberty to either tread water, or ruin his credit, which can affect even his ability to rent.
If they're misled, or dealt with deceptively, these situations should qualify as fraud and be prosecuted as such.
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so does that mean that it should be illegal for you to drive your kids to school, unstrapped(them).
Parental rights are another matter entirely. I'd rather stay focused on the core issue for now, if you don't mind. (ie, that will quickly snowball into another thread. Start one if you're interested, I'll probably participate.)
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I'm not a hundred percent confident in that reasoning, because everything could be curtailed, using that as an excuse.
Ayup.
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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Quote:But I am. I sometimes watch TV shows like Impact which documents horrific accidents and the heroic rescues, complex surgeries, and painful rehabilitations which follow. About half of those accidents are from young white male extreme sport enthusiasts: people who jumped off a bridge and didn't open their chute in time, or tumbled down a rocky mountain-face during and extreme-skiing contest, or crashed their motorcycle while jumping five cars amd I can't help thinking.... Why the frak am I paying for THEM??? It kinda burns my ass. And I've known drug-addicted parents who neglected their children to the point where the state had to step in and take care of them, and I'm thinking.... This is not a victimless crime.
Just to be clear, when I say that the government should stop people who put others in danger, I'm not talking about secondary and tertiary nonsense like insurance rates or 'personal entanglements'
If you don't want to be scolded by society, don't expect to be coddled by it either.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But I am. I sometimes watch TV shows like Impact which documents horrific accidents and the heroic rescues, complex surgeries, and painful rehabilitations which follow.
First of all, don't watch those shows. Please.
Quote:
About half of those accidents are from young white male extreme sport enthusiasts: people who jumped off a bridge and didn't open their chute in time, or tumbled down a rocky mountain-face during and extreme-skiing contest, or crashed their motorcycle while jumping five cars amd I can't help thinking.... Why the frak am I paying for THEM???
Depends on what you mean by "paying for them". If you're saying your tax money shouldn't be used to take care of (or bail them out as the case may be), I totally agree. If your idea of "paying for it" is insurance rates going up, I totally disagree. Insurance rates aren't yours to keep at a certain level. If you don't like the price, quit paying. Or go to another company that doesn't insure crazy risk takers.
Speaking of extreme sports, isn't interesting how the more we try to remove risk from life with government mandate, the more people seek it out for fun?
Quote:
If you don't want to be scolded by society, don't expect to be coddled by it either.
Sounds good to me.
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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sorry I missed the wink...I thought hte little green dude was the sickly looking one
as to prosecuting credit card companies
but it's not fraud...
question...in a libertarian society is a company free to make up its own lending rules?
If so, there is no legal recourse at all
just a kid who's future is greatly impactd by a single mistake, and very obtuse jargon about strings attatched
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The credit card companies are free to change their interest rates, due dates, penalties and fees, and credit limits without notice. And then, they had the bankruptcy laws changed so that you could NEVER get out from under!
Contract???? What contract? One side is free to do whatever they want, and the other side has to bend over a take it? That's not a contract.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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well yes,
but Sarg would say that's an example of government intrusion in favor of the credit card companies...
my understanding is that there's like an asterisk that says these companies can change all those details at a whim, in the contract that is signed though...
and who is government to tell them they can't do that in a market regulated system.
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Sarge, maybe you can tell me this... you seem so worried about democracy, the power of the majority to limit a minority's freedoms.
True enugh, but what about the power of the minority to limit the majority's freedoms?
And what about the power of "the contract" to limit personal freedoms? For example, if you are free to jump off a cliff or drug yourself into oblivion... are you free to sell yourself into slavery?
Seems to me that the problem is the same in all circumstances.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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