Dollhouse: Omega - Echo meets Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock. Post comments here.

POSTED BY: Haken
UPDATED: Saturday, May 30, 2009 01:53
VIEWED: 11249
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ECGORDON

Sunday, May 10, 2009 9:27 PM

Caroline, when she was in Wendy's body, made mention of the fact that she had made a five year commitment to the Dollhouse. The way it was worded made me think she entered into the agreement of her own free will. She may have been under some duress in her real life, but DeWitt did not force her to sign. She decided she needed to fulfill her obligation.

GILLIANROSE

Sunday, May 10, 2009 10:45 PM

I thought of that, but Echo rejected that argument so immediately and so forcefully, I can't help but wonder if there wasn't something else going on. And Caroline herself didn't seem emotionally determined, e.g., "I signed a contract and I intend to honor it."

GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, May 11, 2009 1:01 AM

At one point I started to wonder if Topher was a doll ?

and if so, why not other staff members...

It would be a hell of a way to protect the home office.

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

SHINYGOODGUY

Monday, May 11, 2009 6:26 AM

I really liked the episode a lot, and I so hope we get more. One part I thought was so moving, Echo comforting Topher at the end.

Me, too!
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Why does autonomous/aware Echo consent to go back to the Dollhouse and be wiped again? Is it that the Dollhouse is holding her true, Caroline identity hostage?

A very good question G-Rose: Here's what I got from this ep (the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that it was brilliant. Anticlimatic, maybe, but brilliant.) Bear with me a minute; I'm gonna answer your other question first that will lead into the above question. Actually your statement: That didn't work when Alpha tried it.
It did work, but it didn't have the desired affect. Alpha assumed that it would drive Echo "crazy" but there was an interesting point that Ballard made when he was talking with Adelle and Boyd. He said something to the affect that ultimately your true self comes out, your soul or inner being. For Alpha it was the already brain damaged killer. For Echo it was Caroline who was determined to make a difference.

Echo, in that moment, had merged with Caroline. Her true self had emerged in that moment. I understood at the end, upon reading everyone's comments, that's what she meant when Echo uttered Caroline's name in her "bunk". Echo's aware of Caroline, and, I believe Caroline is now aware of Echo. Remember, Echo is aware of her surroundings. The proof, her comforting of Topher. The absolution scene from the Firefly Pilot. She pardoned his past transgressions with that touch, much like Inara did with Book.

Alpha's plan had backfired, he wanted his Frankenstein Bride and tried to make a doll out of Echo/Caroline. Echo "knew" this wasn't right and responded accordingly.
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Which brings me full-circle to answer the question about Echo's return to the Dollhouse. Go back a few eps when Echo told Adelle that she wanted to go and finish an assignment with the millionaire who lost his wife. She was compelled to finish that assignment. Why? Echo had a sense of accomplishment, a purpose, Caroline's vow to make a difference. This was not imprinted in her mind, it came from somewhere else. The composite brought out her true self. Echo knows that the Dollhouse still exists, that the assignment is not over. She is not completely wiped - "Caroline" is aware and Echo can do something about it.
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SGG

Tawabawho?

SHINYGOODGUY

Monday, May 11, 2009 6:45 AM

Dollhouse was set up to fail from the start. First, I heard that it was supposed to begin Wednesday nights but was switched out for Lie to Me. Then I heard that it was placed on the Friday Death Slot (especially the beginning of the Summer Blockbuster season, which always begins in May).

Star Trek is a much-anticipated movie which expects to draw millions of fans, both old and new. Have not seen it but the Buzz is it was very well made and will likely appeal to the masses.
Fox's track record has shown them to be like fish out of water when it comes to shows with complicated and unique premises.

SGG

Tawabawho?

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, May 11, 2009 7:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GillianRose:
I thought of that, but Echo rejected that argument so immediately and so forcefully, I can't help but wonder if there wasn't something else going on. And Caroline herself didn't seem emotionally determined, e.g., "I signed a contract and I intend to honor it."

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is her comment to Alpha along the lines of "Why would I want to live in a luxurious spa-like environment when I could stay HERE with YOU!" (insert swinging pipe) She seems to know there that her options might be kind of limited.

I liked the episode, but I was almost disappointed that the 'composite event' wasn't... really something that just happened. Clearly things were kind of starting to bleed out in Alpha (literally, in one case) but the true composite was something that was done to him. All of Dominique's assertions that Echo could 'become another Alpha' were patently false, and yet it was never pointed out that the composite had been the result of a judgment error that they knew better than to repeat. That kind of bugs me.

[/sig]

CYBERSNARK

Monday, May 11, 2009 1:17 PM

I thought it was pretty clear that Echo returned because she wants the Caroline imprint returned to her. She doesn't have Alpha's specialized knowledge to rebuild a new Chair, so she needs the one that's in the Dollhouse. Only way to get access to it is to willingly walk right back in.

It's not a surrender, it's a calculated submission.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

ZEEK

Monday, May 11, 2009 4:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I liked the episode, but I was almost disappointed that the 'composite event' wasn't... really something that just happened. Clearly things were kind of starting to bleed out in Alpha (literally, in one case) but the true composite was something that was done to him. All of Dominique's assertions that Echo could 'become another Alpha' were patently false, and yet it was never pointed out that the composite had been the result of a judgment error that they knew better than to repeat. That kind of bugs me.

The composite event was very lame. It was just an accident basically. It was also lame that Alpha's interest in Echo was just a crush. There was nothing truly unique or special about her. Those were both let downs IMO.

SAB39

Monday, May 11, 2009 6:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
The composite event was very lame. It was just an accident basically. It was also lame that Alpha's interest in Echo was just a crush. There was nothing truly unique or special about her. Those were both let downs IMO.

Agreed about the composite event but I completely disagree that Echo not being unique/special is a letdown. It's actually one of the things I like a lot about Dollhouse as compared to some of Joss's prior shows.

Joss is known for his strong female characters but an alarming (to me) proportion of his female characters end up with what amount to superpowers of some sort (even in Firefly where just about all of them have an extraordinary talent that "just comes naturally" to them).

One thing I like about Echo and Ballard and Alpha is that neither the heroine nor the hero nor the villain really have superpowers or extraordinary talents. They're just ordinary people who are thrown into an extraordinary situation and do extraordinary things as a result.

ASARIAN

Tuesday, May 12, 2009 5:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

I liked the episode, but I was almost disappointed that the 'composite event' wasn't... really something that just happened. Clearly things were kind of starting to bleed out in Alpha (literally, in one case) but the true composite was something that was done to him. All of Dominique's assertions that Echo could 'become another Alpha' were patently false, and yet it was never pointed out that the composite had been the result of a judgment error that they knew better than to repeat. That kind of bugs me.

Bugged me, too. From the get-go, the 'composite event' was set up to be, say, the anomalous resultant of a repeated imprinting process. Something unexpected; something as of yet inexplicable. Hence Topher's initial "Couldn't; shouldn't; did." And, indeed, Dominique indicated, many times, that Echo was on her way of going the way of Alpha, too. And now it turns out the 'composite event' was nothing more than Topher running a Chair-experiment-gone-awry, using all Alpha's previous imprints in an inopportune fashion. So, they knew full-well what went wrong all along. And it's apparently a repeatable process (as Alpha does it on Echo without much ado). See, I got nothing against brilliant Jossian plot-twists, where it turns out the man had us fooled the whole time, ... as long as it's indeed based on said brilliance, and not on a rather sizeable continuation error.

As for Echo returning to the Dollhouse, I get the whole "It's not finished" rationale; I'm just not buying it. Never have, really. Oh, I realize that that's probably what they intended it to be, but it has always felt contrived to me. From the justification for November signing herself over to the Dollhouse, to Echo going back for seconds, so some fat internet guy can get his jollies off, I just cannot become sold on the rationalization, it seems. I guess I have a problem with the whole 'voluntary' thing to begin with. It's just unfathomable to think someone is really willingly signing him/herself over into slavery -- especially now that we have a black President. :) And it's a good thing you brought up Echo's options being limited, PhoenixRose, because there's two parts to having a choice: a free will, and having options to choose from. And that's where the rub has been for me all along: "Either go to jail for a very long time, or come whore for us for a spell." Threatening to impose a greater evil on you, just so you'll 'choose' the lesser evil, that's just common blackmail.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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