History Of FIAT CURRENCY Foretells '$' Destruction
POSTED BY: out2theblack
UPDATED: Monday, April 7, 2025 22:05
VIEWED: 5979
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BSCM: You claim that the idea of redistributing wealth is bogus but have not either logically or factually demonstrated it to be a problem. Nor have you demonstrated that concentrating wealth is a good thing.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:
Do you mean precious or scrap?
Kinda both, you'd be amazed at what you can get out of "junk", and even more amused at the fact that folks pay me to haul it away!
Computer equipment is useful either way, as is office or electronic stuff - either I can recondition it for some possible use for RAWA, or various semi-political org, or scrap it down for base metals right down to the damn semiconductors and the circuit boards.
http://www.specialtymetals.com/electronics.asp
And what with recycle/disposal fees being what they are, and the equipment policies (as in, out of warranty = out the door!) of various companies, when some goon in a truck shows up and offers to "make it go away" for less than the 'recycler' (who is prolly doin the SAME thing!) they don't ask a lotta questions.
I generally choose raw form and have it struck to rounds, that used to be NWT but they've become real jackasses as of late, more concerned about covering thier ass than servicing their customers, and thus made the relationship unprofitable - seems they desire to have all their paperwork in order for the eventual seizure, so they can't get in trouble for not ratting out their clients and all - and guess who the cost of all that paperwork and recordkeeping gets passed on to ?
I also have some sides in facilitating getting metals to certain folk who speak Albanian from folk who speak English, and that has a little to do with ammunition manufacture and sales, of course.
(And no, I myself don't speak Albanian, good golly, my english is bad enough, innit !)
Also, there's precious and semi-precious uncut gemstones, which like anything else, I own outright - not points or shares in some "on paper" stone somewhere in a phony vault that doesn't really exist, the physical product, and in a location *I* have access to, rather than some asshole place that's gonna slam and lock the doors just when you actually NEED it - and then what will you do, get a battering ram ?
Same for the metal, unless it's "in-hand" it's bullshit, comex "gold" is just worthless paper and if the shit DOES hit the fan they'll not honor it anyhows.
http://news.silverseek.com/TedButler/1193161018.php
Of course, as I am also fond of pointing out, precious metal isn't so useful as currency to someone who has no need of it and thus will not take it, so I generally keep a decent stock of "trade goods" around as well - but the REAL value is something without weight, that needs no storage and cannot be stolen from you, only given freely... knowledge.
You might not convince a farmer to trade you some food for pretty rocks or whiskey, but if you can fix his tractor, on the other hand....
-F
EDIT: Toilet paper, hah, that's a good one, it's ALWAYS, ALWAYS been one of my trade goods, dating back to my army days, when I carried eight rolls of the damn stuff out on field deployments and sold it to the other idiots by the square - six rolls of cheap bare minimum stuff, and two rolls of comfy quilted luxury stuff, which true to stereotype, the officers bought more of than anyone else.
(And one LT got blackmailed over it by me, too!)
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Quote:The very basis of your message here demonstrates the fundemental difference twixt us. I wouldn't attempt to prove that concentration of wealth is either good or bad.
Originally posted by SignyM:
BSCM: You claim that the idea of redistributing wealth is bogus but have not either logically or factually demonstrated it to be a problem. Nor have you demonstrated that concentrating wealth is a good thing.
What I will debate is that the presence of controls that either promote or hinder wealth from either spreading or aggregating is not a positive influence on either american prosperity or the human condition. I say, and always say, to let the free market do what the free market always does: level the economic field to allow the better thinkers to improve the system.
I do however, bend to the knowledge that humanity is as capibable of evil as it is of initative. Therefore fundemental controls must exists to inhibit monoply or other economic abuses. This is what separates me from pure anarchists like Frem. The Anri-Trust laws of the early 1900's are certainly well placed. It may suprise you to know that there are other regulations I support as well, such as O's new drive to close some offshore tax havens.
But the subject of the thread was to be the value of the american fiat and why it always decreases. Rue would have us believe that it happens because the wealthy collect more fiat than the poor do. What a bizarre argument when the value of the fiat is meerly the value of the national equity behind it. Then came an evolution of debate away from fiat value to whether we should or should not spread the worthless fiat around.
I don't have to prove that wealth concentration is a "good" thing. I don't have to prove that redistrubution is a "bad" thing. What I have to do is prove that the free market is superior to nationalism for human prosperity. As always happens with a free market motavitated citizens use it to advantage to aggregrate wealth. So what? When you and Rue and others try to take that away, you are in a sense trying to fix what is not broken while breaking something else that is beautiful: Human Iniative. It's the fundemental lesson of Atlas Shrugged which you have said didn't impress you.
I become as passionate about violated economic freedoms when I debate with socialists as I do about violated personal freedoms when I debate with zelots and fundementalist christians Both guide humanity toward absolute, though differing, tyrannies. Imagine having to reside in the former soviet states where both were in play.
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Quote:Dude, I know quite well what you describe. You must have done awsomely in 2008 when those prices spiked from June-August.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:Quote:
Do you mean precious or scrap?
Kinda both, you'd be amazed at what you can get out of "junk", and even more amused at the fact that folks pay me to haul it away!
I managed to get my hands on some aluminum 1-1/2" eighth wall tubes and held them until July. Ended up getting $109 for them. An awsome haul for something a guy was gonna toss without a thought. Of course I was lucky, the 2008 spike couldn't have been predicted. Had I waited until August I might have gotten a little more, but by July I could tell that prices were just way to overvalued and a correction would be certain and sudden. I took what I could get and then watched with mild annoyance the arrival of the August peak followed by the sudden elevator-ride price plunge.
Browncoats forget that scrap rights were what caused the inital meltdown twixt Mal and Patience. Scrap is serious business.
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Indeed I did, that's what financed the jump from Cabbie to Security - especially given the rabid level of taxation that was eatin me alive at the time, krishna onna crotch rocket, you think you folk get it hard, check out the tax bracket for an independant subcontractor without a single job exception and no wife or dependants.
-F
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"But the subject of the thread was to be the value of the american fiat and why it always decreases. Rue would have us believe that it happens because the wealthy collect more fiat than the poor do."
Actually a misstatment of what I posted. The same thing happens WITH GOLD AND SILVER COINAGE. When Boston merchants and bankers had concentrated a large share of the wealth in the form of gold currency, there was not enough to go around. Farmers could not get loans to plant, small business could not get loans to open etc. While the very wealthy few were doing very well, the rest of the economy was sputtering to a halt. Deflation occured 1873-1896, including The Long Depression 1873 - 1879, and a major market crash in 1893 - a 23 YEAR LONG BUST CYCLE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions
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And it all happened on the gold standard.
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Rue, a certain quantity of tangibles or fiat play their role. I agree on this portion. But you neglect everything else. All things have a value. If a farmer from the 19th century produces 10 bushels of oats but there are not enough silver coins in circulation for him to aquire because mercantilists have thus horded them, he can certainly trade the oats for an ox. The oats have value. The ox has value. A trade occurs if both parties precieve an advantageous trade. These things happened all the time in the 19th century. Whole free markets were built around them. The famous Chicago Commodities Exchange was based around the wildly successful system (Thus the 2 sports teams in Chicago are the Bulls and the Bears in honor of the success of the market) They happen every day with every non-physical fiat exchange in our own time period. Is there enough physical fiat in play to pay for each and every transaction every day in the US? Surely not. That's why there is essentially an infiniate amount to the ceiling of it. As the overall macroeconomy grows, so does the "amount" of the intagible fiat. The critical mass moment occurs when the world market asks the question "Has the United stated borrowed more fiat from itself that is contained in the sum total of all of it's national equity?" Since the answer to the question remains "No" we chug along. But when the answer becomes "Yes"...well Chrisisall will see his favorite TV show become reality.
Life in the states will become alike to Dark Angel.
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O2B- It's not that I think paper is inherently worth "something", it's just that gold is not necessarily any better. Ancient economies didn't necessarily pay or trade in gold. Sometimes currency was a simple as a cuneform tablet. The Romans paid in salt. Cyrean economies paid in silphium (a now extinct birth control herb) altho they used coin too.
Quote:
The seeds of the fickle fennel came into such high demand that they were eventually worth their weight in silver. The Roman government went so far as to store a cache of the herb in the official treasury
www.damninteresting.com/?p=851
All you have to do is google up "ancient currency" to come up with this list:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Funny-Money-Interesting-Ancient-Currencies
And just because an economy is based on gold doesn't prevent it from imploding nor does it prevent currency debasement. The reign of Louis XIV collapsed due to his incessant warmongering.
www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/MayJun01/MS611.htm In this case, the state ran the banque and was the sole issuer of currency (gold coin). But when money started to run out, the state started issuing clipped coins... until they started coming back as tax payments! So even official gold and silver coins can be debased by coin clipping, which has occurred since precious metal coins were invented!
Anyway, my point is that a currency is only as sound as the economy behind it.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:But if this works so well, why are you so afraid of money losing its value? You still have a house- right? Your car- has value? Your skills- valuable, no? Stocks still have value? And if it DOESN'T work so well, then you cannot propose what is in essence barter as a logical alternative to currency, and must therefore pay attention to currency's distribution (or lack of).
If a farmer from the 19th century produces 10 bushels of oats but there are not enough silver coins in circulation for him to aquire because mercantilists have thus horded them, he can certainly trade the oats for an ox. The oats have value. The ox has value. A trade occurs if both parties precieve an advantageous trade.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:Well you just changed the conversation there, mahap without even knowing it. The currency is the vehicle of the trade in our modern world. The advent of the industrial age promoted it. Debase the currency and risk reverting to the pre-industrial world. Aka Dark Angel.
Originally posted by SignyM:
if this works so well, why are you so afraid of money losing its value? You still have a house- right? Your car- has value?
It's difficult to describe these truths to a person who has already admitted a belief that businesses and free currencies promote dystopia. It's why I asked you if you're an anarchist. I know people in my libertarian circles that are. I've heard all the arguments about how we should ignore the value of any currency and live our lives like star trek. That cannot work unless the overwhelming majority of the population becomes enlightened which will never happen. The human species is hardwired to hoard and survive. Only a scant few can rise above it with thought.
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