BSG : Finale
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Sunday, October 25, 2009 14:48
VIEWED: 5689
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I missed the final god speech, I didn't have sound for the last 5 min. That might be critical. I caught the earlier Caprica and Gaius scenes.
On the face of it, in MSM, everything has to be a zionist mission of some sort, and adama's ark was since it was first written, a zionist story. OTOH, so is everything else running. The neat part is the undercurrent.
Okay, Caprica, "Number 6" can it be any more blatant? Sure I'll go with the looney crowd and say she's the devil. Life long she controls Gaius. He's not a man in power, he's definitely not God, he's series long a man of intense self doubt projecting an image of confidence. This returns us to the beginning where he kicks her out, everything we already know, but it's intentionally here as a reminder: Gaius was part of a plan, never an instigator. Caprica is the devil, and Gaius is her instrument, the anti-christ.
150,000 years ago is a decent shot for the split of homosapiens from their predecessors. Some would mix, others wouldn't, they would remix, and resurface. If you wanted to read racism into this, it would be easy, but anyone concerned with petty social issues should watch dollhouse instead [/snark]
If it were me, writing this story, I would have only had Caprica in a crowd scene in the future, I would not have drawn in and focused on them. I would like to watch that last bit again with sound. But subtlety is key.
It was a decent end. Kara Thrace disappeared. I think there are a lot of potentially interesting answers to that. That she's Jesus is not one of those.
The religious overtones of everything that is permitted to broadcast today are like the state communist overtones of the soviet era, or the arch patriotism of war movies. It's not to be taken at face value. I think there are a lot of subversive things here.
There's raw material for a substory. Cylons are not going to abandon technology. If they do, they could make it from scratch in a year, and be back where they were. But with the scattering, the admiral will lose sight of his fleet (he may have already in the ships...)
I actually thought the fast forward ending was obvious without any fast forward at all. I knew if you put Caprica Six on Earth you were in for trouble, no matter what anyone said.
But, Gaius is human, maybe she builds a new Gaius?
There's a lot to think about here. I'll have to watch the whole thing over from the beginning.
As for the humans, there is no coincidence in this story. The coordinates come from the cylon code. This means the cylons have chosen this planet, built it, or, due to time travel, it is their home world. The presence of humans is probably their own creation. Cylon quest for procreation is real. They get so close, they aren't going to stop trying.
So, Cylons send off their old tin cans, of course they would, they want to disappear, that's their goal. Their new goal. Once, they wanted to fly, now they want invisibility. Tin can robots are very visible.
I still hold Gaius is a pawn. We see too much of his "wanting to believe" and becoming convinced over time. Starbuck is more than an apparition. If things can appear, they can disappear. And then there's the time travel issue again.
Interesting subtle generation change. The cylon leadership is outdated. It's goals and methods are a liability. A new Cylon leadership takes over, and that's an undercurrent that's been running for a long time. It arrived nicely at that destination.
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BSG was my all time second favourite TV show but this last season really blew chunks as far as i'm concerned..
Anyone else notice Ron Moore reading the magazine whilst Six and Baltar are looking over his shoulder?
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I'm a little surprised at the confusion over "immortal" Caprica 6 and Gaius, because I thought it was made pretty clear. The pair we saw in Earth's present time was not "real". They were angels. God (or whatever this diety likes to be called) put these two angels in the skin of Caprica No 6 and Gaius so they could talk to and manipulate the real people. The real couple settled with everyone else and died long ago, the angels hung around. And had to keep wearing the same skin because otherwise the TV viewership would have been very confused.
God works in mysterious ways, right? I think that's the core of it. The "visions" that Balter had of the seductive robot in red seemed to be evil, even devil-like, but it was actually God guiding him. Reminds me of Donnie Darko, in that we're been challenged to see God's hand even in people/events that we want to write off as evil.
I think it was also spelled out pretty clearly that Starbuck was another of these angels, though of a different sort. She didn't know what she was, and she was visible to everyone. Might not be a lot of logic behind that. It was probably just a dramatic choice. It is a TV show, after all. 
Anyway, I did enjoy the ending, though plot holes remain. Mostly, I'm confused at how an entire planet of Cylon skinjobs existed 2000 years earlier. Until the discovery of Earth #1, I had thought that the Colonials invented the toasters which rebelled then went away for 40 years and invented the skinjobs. Clearly, that's not the case! Maybe this "from the cylon's side" special that they advertised will explain the Cyclon's history.
Leaving the tech behind was ridiculous. I didn't buy it either, not a bit.
Oh well. The show was still a really fun ride, I thought. Sad it's over.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Quote:
Mal4Prez
Caprica 6 and Gaius... not "real" ... angels.
Send me a link to the last 5 min with sound, and I'll comment. I am deeply hoping this is not the answer, that is so uninteresting. The way I understood it, angels were visions, hence, possibly programs, that cylons could see. There was all this noise about Daniel a few eps back. Not clear on that.
My conclusion was, ah, so Caprica Six is satan. But it's better than that, or could be.
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Starbuck was another of these angels
I was afraid of this. I think it's a dumb development, as is Gaius being any more than a manipulated prick. The real problem is the overal problem: These characters are intensely conflicted and emotional and interesting.
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It is a TV show, after all.
Ah yes, thanks for the reminder. Silly me, looking for meaning in a vacuum.
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I did enjoy the ending, though plot holes remain.
The biggest one for me was that it was not at all consistent with anything else that happened in the show, not the characters, events, nothing.
I was disappointed about the kill list:
Select to view spoiler:
I wanted a hero's death for Baltar and Adama, of different natures.
I wanted Boomer to live. Because that's how life is.
But even the last ep is internally inconsistent. It flashes back to Caprica Six manipulating an all to human and weak Gaius Baltar. This is reality, and it should remain reality for the show. Some last minute religious twist isn't going to make this not so.
I always assumed that part of the reason that Baltar had visions was that the principle defining character structure was an excess of denial covering a fatal dose of guilt, on top of a truly flawed self serving individual.
I didn't have the same issue you mention here because there was already mention of time travel. Coordinates are or can be space-time coordinates. That's perfectly acceptable to me.
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Clearly, that's not the case!
Cyclical history. Cylons are forever inventing themselves. And then getting into a war with humans, losing, going back in time to try to get it right. We invented them once, and then we were stuck with the problem forever. This is a pretty logical conclusion if your cyborgs invent time travel. This is the logical conclusion of T:SCC as well.
Anything in the story that conflicts with that conclusion is either clever or sappy, and I'm afraid some of this was the latter.
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Leaving the tech behind was ridiculous. I didn't buy it either, not a bit.
Oh, yes, let's embrace cholera everyone. This ties to one of the gaping holes in the show overall. Why no one at any point put a bullet in the back of Adama's head is not just a stunning display of stupidity, it's a story hole a parsec wide. Even knowing everything about the reality, which I don't, but I know enough to know that if any character on the show knew the whole of it, that almost anyone there would still cap Adama before Gaius, if only by a matter of seconds.
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Oh well. The show was still a really fun ride, I thought. Sad it's over.
True. But it's not... There's Caprica. Of course, this finale totally screwed any potential for making that an interesting story. Caprica could either turn into a silmarillion backstory or a T:SCC backstory, and no one is really that interested in the former I suspect.
Oh, and I enjoyed the last season, I thought it was great, in spite of, rather than because of the religious overtones. I don't think TV does anything but religious propaganda anymore. The best you can hope for is religious propaganda with social commentary and characters, stories, maybe a little humor.
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I don't like the goal of breaking the "cycle" as the reason for abandoning technology.That is simply starting the cycle over at the beginning. They had to have known that it would "all happen again". there had to be a better solution from a roomful of writers than "delay the inevitable"
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Quote:I don't have a link to the 150,000 years later scene, but when I saw it I didn't think had the actual #6 standing there with some Cyclon-rebuilt Baltar. I even got the impression that the people around them couldn’t see or hear them. I'm not sure how I got that idea and can't claim to be right, not until I see the scene again.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:Quote:
Mal4Prez
Caprica 6 and Gaius... not "real" ... angels.
Send me a link to the last 5 min with sound, and I'll comment. I am deeply hoping this is not the answer, that is so uninteresting. The way I understood it, angels were visions, hence, possibly programs, that cylons could see. There was all this noise about Daniel a few eps back. Not clear on that
Anyhow, the interviews in the "making of" deal that played a few hours before the final episode laid some heavy hints that Baltar's private #6 was an angel, a messenger from God. It certainly was discussed a lot. Try this, especially about a minute in:
http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/?clip=10
Quote:I wasn't fond of Starbuck disappearing at first. But it makes some sense, more than her settling into Brady Bunch happiness with blondified Apollo. She was dead after all. And it made it very clear to me that she was in fact an angel. Kind of reminds me of Gandalf, who died but got sent back more powerful so he could finish the job.Quote:
Starbuck was another of these angels
I was afraid of this. I think it's a dumb development, as is Gaius being any more than a manipulated prick. The real problem is the overal problem: These characters are intensely conflicted and emotional and interesting.
Quote:Sorry - I wasn't meaning to jab at you or anyone when I said that. I really mean to remind myself, because I do like getting very analytical. But some details of a TV show's plot aren't as relevant as I'd like to make them. Those folks have to tell their tale in a limited time with limited budget, network hags telling them what to air, a large and varied audience to please, etc.Quote:
It is a TV show, after all.
Ah yes, thanks for the reminder. Silly me, looking for meaning in a vacuum.
BTW the head writer guy did flat out say that he was more interested in characters then plot. He certainly left some weak plot points in to get more juiciness out of the character interactions. I think Starbuck is the prime example of this.
Quote:Really? As Mal would say: Hunh.
The biggest one for me was that it was not at all consistent with anything else that happened in the show, not the characters, events, nothing.
Quote:The religious “twist” was hardly new. That's been going on from get go, and was pushed pretty hard through the last season with so many characters having visions and such. Caprica 6 manipulating weak Gaius is pretty much par for the show as well.
But even the last ep is internally inconsistent. It flashes back to Caprica Six manipulating an all to human and weak Gaius Baltar. This is reality, and it should remain reality for the show. Some last minute religious twist isn't going to make this not so.
Or am I misunderstanding you?
Quote:And I think it's just good writing that it could have been his brain on the fritz from guilt, or it could have been an implanted chip, or it could have been Satan, or it could have been God. But events in the last episode made it pretty clear to me, especially when the "real" Balter and #6 both came face to face with the "spirit" Baltar and #6.
I always assumed that part of the reason that Baltar had visions was that the principle defining character structure was an excess of denial covering a fatal dose of guilt, on top of a truly flawed self serving individual.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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*snip*
Since this seems to be the hate-on-the-finale thread, and since I liked it--not for its realism or lack thereof, but because of the content of what it had to say (which is the value of sci-fi in the first place)--I'm not sure I have anything to add. Enjoy your displeasure.
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I don't have a link to the 150,000 years later scene, but when I saw it I didn't think had the actual #6 standing there with some Cyclon-rebuilt Baltar. I even got the impression that the people around them couldn’t see or hear them. I'm not sure how I got that idea and can't claim to be right, not until I see the scene again.
As long as there is an interpretation on that order, it's possible that Caprica can be saved. The cycle is interesting, it implies that Humans invent Cylons, Cylons take over Humans, Humans battle Cylons, Cylons invent time travel and go back to the beginning and start over. It's the ultimate unwinnable war. If T:SCC is clever, it will realize that it is in the exact same paradox. If BSG brings actual god into it, they kill the show concept, because the cycle is the only thing that makes the story make sense. If they kill the show concept, then they have nothing left for the next series than a pointless backstory of somewhere in the middle of the cycle.
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Anyhow, the interviews in the "making of" deal that played a few hours before the final episode laid some heavy hints that Baltar's private #6 was an angel, a messenger from God. It certainly was discussed a lot. Try this, especially about a minute in:
http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/?clip=10
Yeah, I didn't have any doubt about the writers and angels, I just have problems with it. I know that Katee desperately wanted to be a cylon, and that manifests itself in the show, by having Kara desperately want it. But also, she's filled with pathos and so down to earth, if she were just an angel, she'd just appear to serve her purpose. We see her do a whole lot more than that. I mean, if she's an angel, it's on a nicholas cage level, but that's not as interesting as making her be a next generation cylon.
The angels as entities idea as opposed to angels as cylon projection is a potential gaping story hole. This isn't some random prime time drama where your fantasy element can be religion, it's science fiction, and it's a mix of classical and biblical... It deserves a better explanation.
It's one thing that really annoys me about the format of television is that some writer can screw things up for everyone else, even if they're a really good writer. It needs to be reigned in to one consistent reality.
The short of it is Baltar never acts like anything above a flawed human, with visions. I saw those as manipulating him, not as some sign of divine providence.
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I wasn't fond of Starbuck disappearing at first. But it makes some sense, more than her settling into Brady Bunch happiness with blondified Apollo. She was dead after all. And it made it very clear to me that she was in fact an angel. Kind of reminds me of Gandalf, who died but got sent back more powerful so he could finish the job.
Yes, but that was corny even in LotR. The fact is that the character was desperate, conflicted, and interesting. Angels are boring, unless they're a cylon projection. With all offense intended and no interest in arguing, western religion is based on an entertaining but uninteresting fairy tale. It's imaginative in its depictions, but very simplistic in its pivotal plot elements. The holy bible and Star Wars share that in common, with the difference that the former is probably better written, and the latter has better special effects. God was always in this story, but it doesn't really have a place in sci-fi. I imagine it will find a home in SyFy :)
I'm interested in Cybernetika, not in Theology. If I were, I'd watch something else.
Interesting: Human belief in God and its conflict with machines
Boring: Machines belief in God
Interesting: Machines using God to manipulate humans
I like Cylons, more than I like humans. I think this is probably overall true of the audience, which is why it has an audience. I'd been hoping that Starbuck had been reborn as a new Cylon-Human crossbred clone in the interests of Cylon reproduction.
An apparition has no point in existance if there is no one to see it.
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Finally "heard" the final few minutes dialogue. The angels are really present. I'm not sure I like this concept, or that it's fitting. Angel Gaius is hard to fit into the concept overall, I like #6 in his head, I think he's a haunted man, but angels with no one to talk to just become an evolution of science. Humans as the descendents of humans and cylons is possibly silly, it does leave Caprica, the show, nowhere to go.
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To mee the most shocking points in the finalie are when Col. Tigh finds out that his wife is a cylon model,(just like him), and also when Starbuck, FRACKING MOTHERFRACKING STARBUCK, was revealed to be one of the final models.
OH HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!
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