PTSD and Mal. Really?

POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Monday, January 27, 2020 20:08
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BYTEMITE

Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:58 PM

I heard someone say that somewhere canon, maybe one of the visual companions, it's written that Zoe was transferred into Mal's command about 2.5 years before Serenity Valley.

Never seen it myself, so I don't know for sure. Kinda makes you wonder what both of them were doing those 7.5 years before then if it's true.

I like your fanon though. :)

As for their relationship, there could possibly be an element of trauma touchstone there. But I think their relationship is far, far more positive and forward focused for both of them than it is negative or constricting.

Rallem: Kinda like it is on the ship, except for those "out-the-airlock" moments, eh? :)

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:23 PM

I guess we disagree on many points, then.

It's not that I see Zoe as a frail skeleton of her true self, waiting to break as soon as Mal is out of her sight, but I think that not all of what she does is healthy and it is not the normal "not a leader" kind of reluctance, but a fairly extreme reluctance to truly confront herself or step outside the chain of command-life she knows.

It's not all there is to Zoe, but I see it clearly.

Children on Serenity.. I guess it's the difference between living in a lonely cabin on a hostile, violent prairie in 1850 - and living in those conditions in 2009. The former was a wide-spread way of life, the latter is a real choice with vastly unnecessary dangers.

I get that "wanting it all" is a brave thing for women to do but there is a line to draw between brave and selfish. She's selfish with regards to Wash and she's selfish with regards to a child. Marriage is a partnership and so far the only one making concessions has been Wash. It's the reason I see their marriage failing (before being reconciled) in my personal canon. It'd be one thing if they both wanted it that way (Crazy, but less selfish) but Zoe completely disregards Wash's reasonable protest, as if his opinion doesn't count. With this serene "I want to meet our children one day", as if his worries hadn't even registered. I find the whole scene supremely creepy, actually. It's not like they'd have to move to the Core. There's a big range of places I'm sure some even Zoe could tolerate for a while, and I doubt everywhere is as frequently in mortal danger as Serenity is.

This inability to compromise with Wash, even truly communicate, aknowledge his right to have a say in their lifestyle choice.. it really struck me. I can't see anything but bad in this scene and it's pretty key to me.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, March 17, 2009 10:59 PM

It's too bad they didn't get to keep the money in Better Days.

In that comic book, Zoe expresses that she would be willing to leave Serenity with Wash and start a family in a safe environment provided they had the money.

And, I assume, if Zoe felt that Mal would be okay if she left.

PLATONIST

Wednesday, March 18, 2009 5:08 AM

Good points everyone, enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. I'm not wanting to take sides here, but from my viewpoint it seems by the time Zoe was ready to leave Mal to start a family with Wash, it was too late, time wouldn't let her, Wash dies.

The BDM has always left me with the impression that Zoe realizes that Mal and Serenity are no longer offering her what Wash can, maybe sometime after Lilac, but then all hell breaks loose and her and Wash are committed to see Mal through one more time, metaphorically, help him out of the Valley, too. Unfortunately it’s Wash that dies. Ironically it’s Zoe that stays and Mal is victorious this time and rejuvanated to take on another challenge...see Inara for that:)

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 18, 2009 1:58 PM

Rejuvenated? I can't imagine any of the crew being exactly rejuvenated after that. Even Mal.

Despite his very inspirational speech, I don't think it was a fountain of spirit that he was operating on after Book's death. Sure, there were some noble reasons to do what he did, but I think he was motivated by first survival, and after Haven, and finding Miranda, vengeance.

Even IF Book's death boosted him up in some way(unlikely, because in the end it's ANOTHER person Mal's lost and failed), he then would've gotten kicked in the face by whatever newfound spirit he had when Wash died. It'd be a belated response, because they were pretty busy, but the emotions would have to be there and I think the whole business would hit Mal very hard. He takes the responsibility he has for his crew very seriously. And, Wash and Book were friends (or as close as Mal gets to having friends).

Inara staying (or being ambiguous about leaving, at least), is kind of a consolation prize. All in all, the crew lost, even if they succeeded.

But I agree with you on Zoe. I think she was ready to go away with Wash, just the opportunity got stolen from her.

PLATONIST

Wednesday, March 18, 2009 2:36 PM

Hmmm, doesn't Joss say something to the effect (on the CE comments) that Zoe looses something in the BDM and Mal gains something? I was just going by that, no judgment on what Mal may or may not internalize about Wash's death, in general terms it's a big win for Mal, even though he lost crew. He's kind of used to that being in command. Its part of the responsibility you need to shoulder.

And you’re right, it will be a delayed reaction, because Mal, I think, started to recognize what Zoe and Wash wanted, a life shared in love and without violence i.e., creating a child, together. It wasn’t happening on Serenity. And I hate to bring this up, but does Mal look all that depressed at the end of the movie? He at least looks like he’s ready to move forward.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:12 PM

That's what Mal does... Doesn't mean he's necessarily happy or feeling good about events.

Compare him at the end of the movie with him at the end of Trash. THERE is a content, victorious Mal. Bit of bravado to cover the embarrassment, true, but I do think that Mal considers the heist a big success, and is satisfied by how things turned out.

I picture Mal as having never really taken the death of his men well, or having been able to get over it easily. He goes on, but each time he gets a little more damaged. Look at when Tracey dies. Tracey turned on them! Mal was the one who had to shoot Tracey! But once again, I'm sure Mal sees it as he failed Tracey. And he doesn't seem to even have to know someone very long for the same response (Nandi).

It kind of goes along with the whole over-protectiveness and fear of loss aspect of his possible PTSD. He might not show it, he might shoulder it and still manage to be the leader, but in the case of him having PTSD I think death is going to hit him hard in general because he's sensitized to it.

EDIT: I think Joss was talking about Zoe losing Wash and Mal getting a chance with Inara in that comment. Not that Mal's better off from an emotional standpoint than when he started the movie. Although, with Inara around, he might be able to get better... At least until she drops her bombshell on him.

The guy really can't catch a break.

RALLEM

Wednesday, March 18, 2009 4:26 PM

I am wondering if Zoe had struggled through the four degrees of separation during the battle with the Reavers, or if maybe that was a temporary emotional journey and the real four degrees of separation began after Serenity was rebuilt. I in the past have dealt with grief and figured my emotional struggles were over only to find later on they weren’t, so I wonder if Zoe will face similar delayed struggles.

I wanted to discuss Mal’s possible ptsd reactions if he were to get acquainted with Inara in a romantically, but I don’t want to reveal Inara’s secret because it is a spoiler.

http://www.swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 18, 2009 4:33 PM

People can only grieve when they have the time to devote to it. Poor Zoe's obviously trying to keep herself busy, but eventually the repairs will be done, and they'll be sailing through the black again, all alone, not much to do between planets, and she'll be STUCK.

You could try skirting around what her secret might be, I probably know what you're talking about and can follow along. >_> I understand not wanting to say it out right, and a lot of people would appreciate it since this thread isn't marked for Inara spoilers.

Or there's a thread that I started a while back to discuss Inara's secret that 2x2 revived recently, I think it's still hanging around the front page. We're pretty easy about discussing Mal/Inara in there, since their relationship would have to be a big part of dealing with Inara's secret.

ANOTHERSKY

Friday, March 20, 2009 4:51 PM

Good point, Bytemite. That's true--what people don't realize is that you can't grieve when you don't have time or situation to--the body and the mind remains in a kind of self-imposed stasis, gets stuck. You save it, push it down, because stopping to process it right now could get you severely injured or killed(or at least it feels like it if not literal). So remains the status quo. (I agree with the point about them dealing with the stress differently anyway, but I would say it's Mal that compartmentalizes, Zoe denies--it's just that Zoe has a good layer of denial laid down to walk on and Mal gets his ugly little compartments mixed up sometimes. Tracy gets his innards scooped. Whatever floats your firefly class.)

Both of them have grieved a little, obviously, by degrees, but not enough, because neither of them have been in a situation where they can do this.
It's always "keep moving, keep continuing".

War(ahem) is a great example of this. So is smuggling, constantly keeping your head above the surface and just below the radar, essentially treading water.

In fact, it's one of the best jobs Mal/Zoe could have to replicate the emotional experience of the Unification War.

Moving on to PTSD Gender differences: thought this was interesting...

"Gender Differences in the Presentation of PTSD:

There are also differences between men and women in the presentation of PTSD. Women are more likely to have symptoms of numbing and avoidance and men are more likely to have the associated features of irritability and impulsiveness. Men are more likely to have comorbid substance use disorders and women are more likely to have comorbid mood and anxiety disorders, although many disorders comorbid with PTSD are commonly seen in both men and women."

this site for the non-captain-dummy-talk about amygdalas and such: http://www.dangerousbehaviour.com/Disturbing_News/Gender%20Differences
%20in%20PTSD.htm

"I think we lost our fuzzy dice back there."
"Going for a ride."

Another Sky

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