Thank Joss for Subtext (aka. Ho!Yay!)
POSTED BY: JaynesGirlfriend
UPDATED: Thursday, December 21, 2006 00:46
VIEWED: 28827
PAGE 5 of 8
Thank you, CharlieBlue, for setting loonytoon "straight" about the recessive traits!
Now, my turn to rant.
Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
Two, I`m an avid hunter, and I have yet to see a single wild animal exhibit homosexual behavior. The gene might very well exist, but it is a recessive trait, and would generally only be shown in an animal with both gay parents, which is unlikely that two gay sheep of opposite sexes are gonna have a roll in the hay! Now with a captive population, and possible human tampering, it is much more likely to happen.
1) you're hunting them. Chances are, you're not going to see every aspect of their life.
2) all breeds of animal have instances of homosexuality. obviously, it's not the majority of the population, or there would no longer be a population, however, it DOES happen.
3) a friend of mine breeds birds. she has a gay couple. 2 male birds that have had plenty of chances to breed with females, and yet they only have sex with each other. She has done nothing to encourage this trait (she's a breeder, so having a gay couple does not help her in any way!)
Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
Third, one of the things that bothers me is that many people think they are gay because its "in". I have met quite a few people that come out of a bad relationship with a person of the opposite sex, and assume it is because they are a (usually) a man, so they pull the ol` switch-a-roo, and poof! There gay! But they are quite often just as miserable or more with another man/woman.
Or they think they are gay because they mistake feelings of very deep friendship as love. They are quite similar feelings, at times.
1) Have YOU ever mistaken a feeling of deep friendship for love? that's ridiculous. If you can't tell when you're in love, YOU'RE NOT.
2) There is a whole spectrum of human sexuality, ranging from completely heterosexual to completely homosexual, with every flavor of bisexual in between.
3) saying that people are pretending to be gay because it is "in" is absolutely ridiculous. It's not that it's "in"... it's that because it is more socially acceptable to be gay, people no longer have to pretend to be something they are not.
4) It is asinine to say that someone "turns gay" because they had a bad relationship with a member of the opposite sex. That is just as intelligent as saying someone "turned straight" because they had a bad experience with someone of their same sex. "Gee, Johnny's best friend Kevin lied to him and hurt his feelings. That must be why he's been dating those girls!"
Being someone who has struggled with her own sexuality, I can tell you that hearing statements like the kind you have just made is incredibly disheartening. We've fought so hard to say that it's ok to be who we are, and it's sad to hear that people still feel like they have a right to try and discredit us. But guess what? It's only going to get more socially acceptable.
______________
We're here, we're queer, get used to it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
Being someone who has struggled with her own sexuality, I can tell you that hearing statements like the kind you have just made is incredibly disheartening. We've fought so hard to say that it's ok to be who we are, and it's sad to hear that people still feel like they have a right to try and discredit us. But guess what? It's only going to get more socially acceptable.
Unfortunately the open minded society is running into a heavy dose of reality. The "Gay Community" attacks on the Boyscouts have had a very negative effect. The Boy Scouts have a no gay rule, because they were deliberatly infiltrated and used as a front for child molesting by a gay child molesting gang.
Denial that child molestation is a often a homosexual act, is also problem. See the numbers of homosexual acts against children, compared to the number of heterosexual abuse cases in the Catholic Church.
Jeff
Who tries to keep an open mind, but when I see good organizations like the Boy Scouts being attacked, it makes me very angry.
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Jeez, why did this topic have to go and get all serious. You don't see this happening at Television Without Pity's HoYay thread. Jaynesgirlfriend, looks like ya might have to keep it there, some people here obviously have no sense of humor.
Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.
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First, I was trying to be polite, I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.
Second, bobknaptor, you obviosly have no idea what hunting an animal really entails. My method of hunting is an excellent example, I hunt in the swamps, so I find a likely looking pond and wait. Last time I went, I did not get a moose, however I did spend a week observing varios moose behaviors about 10-12 hours a day. I saw a mother defending her calf, I saw a submissive bull trying to court a cow, and get run off by a larger bull(a large bull moose grunting 40 feet away is an interesting sight,loud to!) and I have never seen a homosexual behavior in a WILD animal.
And I do have a basic understanding of genetic traits, but I know that 10% of any given population is not going to be gay given a dynamic and changing breeding pool as in the wild, but in captivety, it is much more likely as the recessive genes will be kept alive much longer.
For example, the gay birds mentioned will not pass on there recessive genes as they will not mate with a female. And breeders negate natural selection, as they wish to propagate traits that they want, not what the birds look for in determining a mate in the wild.
As for the social acceptability of being gay, I am speaking from personal expierences and observations, so I know what I am saying does happen. Twenty, or even ten, years ago if you were gay than you would keep a low profile, it existed, but it was not celebrated like it is now. Now people think being gay is perfectly acceptable and therefore think less about the reasons and the consequences before they "come out". If you are undeniably gay, fine, be gay. But many people today consider there sexual orientation about like they do there choice of cars. "Oh, don`t like chevys anymore, I think I`ll try a ford". Sexuality is becoming to casual, and is not regarded as it should be. This does not just apply to gays, I think it is a fault with much of todays society.
And I consider it interesting that nobody has gotten upset about tinytimms comments, when I made almost the exact same comments and you jumped all over me. Like him, I have seen to much hypocrisey coming from the gay community.
P.S. please don`t get worked up over my spelling or use it to say I`m to stupid to continue the argument, I have better things to do than maintain perfect english on a BB.
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Why exactly do you feel that there is a difference between the mating behavior of animals in the wild as opposed to captivity? In reality, scientists who study this issue believe that there may be real survival benefits to having some percentage of a species being gay. For instance, gay males in a hunter-gatherer society would represent an additional contribution in terms of labor, survival, defence, etc., without increasing the group burden by the resource needs of their offspring. Since humans are social animals who clearly benefit from cooperation, sharing, and altruism, a strict "surival of those who have the most offspring" approach is invalid.
The mechanism by which "gayness" would be perpetuated goes something like this: imagine you are a hunter-gatherer and you have a gay relative, say a brother or cousin. You share some genetic material with this person (about 1/4 for your sibling), and his extra contributions to your family group in terms of labor and defence give your genes a survival advantage (some of which may include genes which determine sexual orientation). This survival advantage promotes the propagation of the genes for "gayness" down through the generations to the exclusion of others lacking the gene. Remember that we have two copies of every gene, only one of which is typically expressed.
Similar theories are advanced to explain the common occurance of traits such altruism and self-sacrifice (on behalf of non-immediate family members) which have no "obvious" survival advantage.
One last point. Argument by induction is not compelling. Your experience with the observation of animals while hunting is NOT generalizable to animals in general. Its analogous to "I have seen thousands of geese, which have all been white. Therefore there is no such thing as a black goose." Deductive reason has been the cornerstone of rational, scientific thought since the Enlightenment. Inductive reasoning is useful for generating a hypothesis, but its has absolutely NO ability to prove cause and effect or exclude phenomena not observed.
~Panic
Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
First, I was trying to be polite, I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.
Second, bobknaptor, you obviosly have no idea what hunting an animal really entails. My method of hunting is an excellent example, I hunt in the swamps, so I find a likely looking pond and wait. Last time I went, I did not get a moose, however I did spend a week observing varios moose behaviors about 10-12 hours a day. I saw a mother defending her calf, I saw a submissive bull trying to court a cow, and get run off by a larger bull(a large bull moose grunting 40 feet away is an interesting sight,loud to!) and I have never seen a homosexual behavior in a WILD animal.
And I do have a basic understanding of genetic traits, but I know that 10% of any given population is not going to be gay given a dynamic and changing breeding pool as in the wild, but in captivety, it is much more likely as the recessive genes will be kept alive much longer.
For example, the gay birds mentioned will not pass on there recessive genes as they will not mate with a female. And breeders negate natural selection, as they wish to propagate traits that they want, not what the birds look for in determining a mate in the wild.
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Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
Oh Jayne's Girl- you slay me.
Really though, nothing pisses me off more that a post that says "who cares?". (see below) We do, buddy and if you don't then stop reading!
Also- the great thing about JW is that anything is possible- and sorry, but mutual hair dressing is totally erotic, be it man-man, man-woman, woman-woman, woman-man....
Thanks! Okay, was it just me or were there a couple of pictures of women on the screen when Inara was reviewing perspective clients? There's been speculation that Companion's service both sexes, but this would be nice proof. And add just a little more gayness to the hair scene, which we know I'm all for.
"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne
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Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone:
Jeez, why did this topic have to go and get all serious. You don't see this happening at Television Without Pity's HoYay thread. Jaynesgirlfriend, looks like ya might have to keep it there, some people here obviously have no sense of humor.
It started the second HoYay was even mentioned and not actually in this thread. But I will not be deterred. I like it here despite the talk of recessive traits and gay sheep, which I'm completely ignoring in favor of the more fun discussion that's going on here, such as "How gay is Simon?" Answer, unbelievably gay and totally in love with Mal, sorry Kaylee. In fact the nay-saying just makes me more determined. The slash might not be as obvious on Firefly as it is on say Smallville, but its there. Oh yes, it is there.
"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne
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Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Okay, was it just me or were there a couple of pictures of women on the screen when Inara was reviewing perspective clients? There's been speculation that Companion's service both sexes, but this would be nice proof. And add just a little more gayness to the hair scene, which we know I'm all for.
If you added a little more gayness to that scene, they couldn't show it on network TV. That scene was right up there with Lex and Clark.
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Here's a cap of Inara's screen, at least two of the pics look like woman to me and does anyone else think the bottom left one looks like Mal?
Firefly@Trekvideo.com
http://www.trekvideo.com/firefly
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Ooh, it does look like Mal. Well, I never... The one next to the Mal lookalike is definitely female. Actually, before Inara brought up the video of the boy's proposal I was positive he was a girl. Its nice to know that Inara services women as well as assholes(Atherton) and gay men(26 year old virgin, my ass.)
"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne
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