Hey, we want to be part of the hate!

POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 02:14
VIEWED: 18566
PAGE 14 of 23

PREV PAGE 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 NEXT PAGE

CHRISISALL

Friday, January 16, 2009 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Chris, you actually posted an opinion.

*Engages anti-snark defensive systems*

Quote:

True, the same could be said about fiction in general, everyone has a stealth message, Matrix betrays its cult of Messianic Judaism very early on, even though they didn't admit it until they were done.

Yeah, it was one of the things I have to get around to enjoy the flick, it's kinda in your face. But I liked the Buddhist references.
The Christian thing doesn't bother me much, as long as the crucifixion isn't over-used, or the main character isn't named Heyzeus or something.

"Headin' out to Zion, yeah, brother..."

The no-spoon Chrisisall

DREAMTROVE

Friday, January 16, 2009 7:49 PM

If there is no spoon, then how am I suppose to eat this slush, whether it tastes like tasty wheat or not?

The christianity bothers me not because I object to christianity, which I don't, but because it waters down my wine. I like water fine, as water. But I want my wine.

When I go for fantasy, I want full on fantasy. I want total chaos, all rules and natural order suspended let chaos reign. Now if you introduce a messiah who has special powers, and the people who follow him are the good, and he must overthrow the dark lord, who minions are just an unmitigated force of evil, it's like you're spilling coke on my manicotti.

It should be a wonderland tour, and with any luck, you can get completely lost in it.

I won't turn into a giant snake, it never helps.

Hey Zeus, dont make it bad.
There's no need to get folks converting
Remember, we're the customer who pays your bills
No reason to keep that tired story sucking

Hey Zeus, just go get laid.
You were made to go out and get her.
The minute you let those theotropes slip in,
Then you begin to make it boring.

Anytime you pontificate, hey dude, refrain,
Dont push your world view on the audience
We've heard it all before, it's old, so play it cool
By making your world a little different.

Hey Zeus, dont let us down.
You have found God, now keep it on the down low.
Remember, to keep it under your hat,
Then you can start to make a decent show.

So scratch it out and write this in, hey dude, begin,
We're waiting for something not so dead.
And you know that stuff is tired, hey dude, it's true
The new stuff you need is in your head.

Hey Zeus, dont be so mad
Take your story and make it interesting
Remember, we're the not the enemy from the start,
No reason to turn on us and hurl lightning

Na na na na na ,na na na, hey dude...

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 16, 2009 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Ultimately, what he does is a very extreme version of something many people like to do. Getting away with something, dominating someone, exerting control. Coupled with extreme callousness and, apparently, extreme arrogance. It's all about power. And it's remorseless.

I see. So you don’t have any problems identifying the symptoms. You just don’t want to make a diagnosis.

I don’t think we disagree on what evil is. I think the issue is political correctness. You don’t like the use of the word, because you feel that some people misuse it, but the solution to that is not to censor it, but to use it correctly yourself and demand others to do the same. Any word can be misused. You prefer the word abnormal to evil, but that’s only because you feel it hasn’t been as misused. However, if you start substituting abnormal for evil, you will be misusing it, because there are a lot of people that abnormal describes who do not do what Ted Bundy did. Instead of lumping Ted Bundy in with all those innocent people maybe we should distinguish him correctly.

That's just my view. In the end, we seem to agree. It's just usage we see differently.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KWICKO

Friday, January 16, 2009 11:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jadehand:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

But, for a reference point, it's been 20 years since the Cure song "Killing an Arab." It's not new.

Actually, it's been 28 years. The Album "Boys Don't Cry" was released in 1980. Also, I hope you aren't implying that "Killing an Arab" is a racist song. It's not. It was inspired by Albert Camus' book The Stranger (also known as The Outsider). The book deals with existentialism, and the title "Killing An Arab" was taken from a passage where the main character thinks about the emptiness of life after killing a man on a beach. It is about someone who has killed an Arab on a beach and is thinking about it in retrospect, observing the body.
So kinda the opposite of what just reading the title may make you think.

Actually, it's been 31 years now. The single was released in the UK in 1978. I bought an album called "Twenty of Another Kind" in 1979, and that album had "Killing An Arab" on it. The album was a compilation of what was new and upcoming in the music world. It also has Generation X, which featured some singer named Billy Idol, and Plastic Bertrand's single "Ca Plane Pour Moi", which has gained popularity recently. Stiff Little Fingers and The Jam were also featured.

I've still got the album on vinyl. Apparently it's collectible now; back then, it was just a throwaway way to listen to some overseas punk music...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

KWICKO

Saturday, January 17, 2009 12:02 AM

Quote:
Ah, I see. I thought this was going to be snark-free hate. *biggrin*

A hate without snark is a hate not worth having. :)

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

DREAMTROVE

Saturday, January 17, 2009 12:53 AM

Quote:
I think the issue is political correctness.

对不上, it's an issue of abstract concepts. Not everyone believes in this dichotomy, and some think that it is inherently destuctive, or counter-productive to constructive thought.

Quote:
Generation X, Plastic Bertran

Dude, you have to be like, exactly my age. I never had either I vinyl. I had everything on bootleg.

Mike,

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, January 17, 2009 9:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I see. So you don’t have any problems identifying the symptoms. You just don’t want to make a diagnosis.

No, that's not the case. I said that someone who believes in the concept of evil may find it most clearly defined in such a case, but for someone who doesn't believe in it, there is no "diagnosis: evil" to make. I don't believe that this was all there was to Bundy - and his actions or motives.

And as I said before, his actions were a mere very extreme form of what many people enjoy doing: exert control at the expense of others, to compensate for the lack of it elsewhere. Where do you truly draw the line?

Quote:

I don’t think we disagree on what evil is. I think the issue is political correctness.

No, actually I think we disagree on the idea that it truly exists. I can define it or describe it without subscribing to the concept, and my certainty that the word is being misused and CAN be harmful doesn't automatically mean that there are cases where the word would rightfully be used.

Quote:

You don’t like the use of the word, because you feel that some people misuse it, but the solution to that is not to censor it, but to use it correctly yourself and demand others to do the same.

You misunderstood me, perhaps because I phrased things wrongly.

I think that collection of descriptors I used for Bundy were one aspect of him and one point on a big spectrum of human behavior. For you, there is a demarkation somewhere that defines this point as "evil". I will judge you for it, but I wouldn't try to stop you from using the word. But for me, there is no such demarkation. I can aknowledge that it exists for you, but it doesn't for me. There is no evil, there is only human behavior.

Quote:

You prefer the word abnormal to evil, but that’s only because you feel it hasn’t been as misused.

There you definitely mistunderstood. I used the word abnormal to describe the specific state of Bundy's brain. Not his actions. To merely replace another word for a concept that I don't believe it would be pretty inconsistent, and with "abnormal" it would even be quite unspecific.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, January 17, 2009 9:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Quote:
AGENTROUKA
We do, however, disagree on the origin of the concept.

I think he's talking more culturally, and with a specific value of evil. I can be afraid of bears as a child without thinking that bears were evil.

But it's easy to make the leap, especially as a very young child. Bogeyman, monsters under the bed, the wicked witch. There is little room for complexity in irrational fears, and little children's fears often are irrational because they cannot be rational yet.

And I think I really get where Lao Tzu is coming from - based on your words - how in a culture where good is defined very narrowly, un-good takes up so much room that it becomes its antithesis in evil, but it is kind of unsatisfying a theory to me because evil is a very emotional concept that everyone can identify with, even if it is a fallacy, and I think it cannot be fully explained on an abstract level.

Re: Farscape

Quote:

I find Aeryn very annoying, esp. in her relationship with John, but in her relationship with her parents she becomes intensely interesting.

Aeryn is actually my favorite character.

I agree, though, that her relationship with John is extremely flawed, though I blame both of them for it.

Quote:

Quote:

I'll file it away. One day (in 2010) I may find the time to read for pleasure again.

Ah , time management issues. What do you do, I mean professionally?

I'm a full-time student and part-time secretary, plus a commute and a theater project. It's not an impressive life but it's a busy one. Why, oh, why must I need sleep??

Quote:

I'm serious the Tao is short, only about 5,000 words.

Oh, so short? Is there an online version you can recommend?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 17, 2009 3:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
There you definitely mistunderstood. I used the word abnormal to describe the specific state of Bundy's brain. Not his actions. To merely replace another word for a concept that I don't believe it would be pretty inconsistent, and with "abnormal" it would even be quite unspecific.

It’s political correctness. You can’t see that because you’re stuck in the mindset that “evil” has to be understood in some non-existent religious context. It’s just a word that describes human behavior. There’s nothing magic about it. And just like every other word it has a definition, which you hit on very well in one your posts. You obviously understand the concept and we obviously agree on the definition. You just don’t want to use the term – political correctness.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:49 PM

Quote:
Okay, if this is a theological discussion, what Lao Tzu is saying is that by the act of defining good, you've created evil as its opposite. For instance, your definition of good, which might be completely different from someone else's, might include something as a tenet of Good, which would make that which contradicted it evil. I was going to put in an example, but I'll leave that to you.

Each time we use a word, ANY word, we mentally create the thing and the not-thing. Good (evil). Alive (dead). Cup (non cup)

So think about that cup.

You know what it means, right?

Does it have a handle?
But what about a Japanese tea cup? How is it different from a bowl?

Well, is it more tall than flat, like a paper cup? Then what about coffee mugs? They're taller, and they even have handles. But how is that different from a beer stein? Size?

So is it limited by size? (6-8 oz?) what about espresso and demi-tasse cups? They're smaller.

Does it sit on a flat bottom?
What about victory cups, which have "stems"? And how is that different from a wine glass, which is about the right size?

We THINK we know what we mean when we say a word, but our very words blind us to reality, which doesn't respect our mental boundaries at all.

-------------

So when we talk about cups and non-cups, good and evil, alive and dead... and we think we have a clear-cut definition which crystalizes everything we know about a topic.... all we have is a bright, shining definition which says something about our mental models but perhaps not as much about the real world. That is the nature of mistaking our definitions for the real thing. We must always be aware that simple WORDS can blind us to reality, or even conjure a reality in our minds (purple dragons) that doesn't exist.

----------------

So, on the nature of "good" and "evil": There are people who take pleasure from making others suffer (sadists). There are people who have such internal frustration and such poor impulse control that they lash out. There are people who grew up in abusive households and violent neighborhoods, suffering from PTSD. There are schizophrenics, depressives, people drunk or on other drugs, brain-damaged, low-IQ, seizure-prone, suffering from heavy-metal poisoning, high-functioning autistics, psychopaths and sociopaths of every stripe. They do "bad things".

But what does calling them "evil" do for us? It doesn't tell why they're doing what they're doing, and more importantly it doesn't tell us how to treat them or to prevent the same thing from happening in others. At best, all it does is justify fear, righteousness and vengeance. And vengeance, or "justice", or punishment... or whatever you want to call it.. simply DOES NOT WORK TO DETER SERIOUS VIOLENT CRIME.

So when a definition/ perception causes us to take an action, and that action fails over and over and over and over.... maybe it's time to change perceptions.

The REAL test of whether or not we understand something is called praxis. It provides the reality check for our definitions.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

PREV PAGE 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 NEXT PAGE