Israel Vs. Palestine: Evil Scorecard
POSTED BY: pizmobeach
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2025 19:27
VIEWED: 9289
PAGE 6 of 8
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Geezer wrote:
Tuesday, January 13, 2009 03:09
I'd say that both sides need to recognize each other's right to exist.
That would be a start.
The question I have is "Why is it that neither side in this conflict manages to take the moral high ground?" It's always an eye for an eye, or arm or head or....
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Not, hey you are now Czech and not German etc but rather the knock on the door in the middle of the night and being thrown off the patch of land your family has farmed for generations to make room for a Jewish immigrant...
actually, it's pretty similar. Germans had been settling the so called Sudetenland for some time, and then said "ergo it's ours." I think it's the same. My ancestors were Sudetenland settlers, nobles, and members of the German govt. How it effected them was that they were executed for being enemies of the state, which is to say, opponents of the party. How would it effect me personally? I'd move.
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Historical antisemitism aside, I think these people are right to hate Israelis.
Everyone has that right. I think that often we are told that we don't. You can hate dogs, or cops, or whoever.
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How do you change that while still pulling the same crap that put you in this position... and don't blame Bush, these policy's have gone on forever.
I'm not disagreeing with you here, and why would I blame Bush? Imperialism breeds contempt. If it gets too bad, I become someone else.
Sorry if this seems too passive. Things don't hit me, they pass me by. The fact that this is almost always true is a strength, according to my faith.
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Originally posted by dreamtrove:Quote:
Not, hey you are now Czech and not German etc but rather the knock on the door in the middle of the night and being thrown off the patch of land your family has farmed for generations to make room for a Jewish immigrant...
actually, it's pretty similar. Germans had been settling the so called Sudetenland for some time, and then said "ergo it's ours." I think it's the same. My ancestors were Sudetenland settlers, nobles, and members of the German govt. How it effected them was that they were executed for being enemies of the state, which is to say, opponents of the party. How would it effect me personally? I'd move.Quote:
Historical antisemitism aside, I think these people are right to hate Israelis.
Everyone has that right. I think that often we are told that we don't. You can hate dogs, or cops, or whoever.Quote:
How do you change that while still pulling the same crap that put you in this position... and don't blame Bush, these policy's have gone on forever.
I'm not disagreeing with you here, and why would I blame Bush? Imperialism breeds contempt. If it gets too bad, I become someone else.
Sorry if this seems too passive. Things don't hit me, they pass me by. The fact that this is almost always true is a strength, according to my faith.
Most of the time it seems many Americans feel that with every election they now have a clean slate...
that was a Bush thing or
it was Clintons fault
Part of the problem really
and how far would you move, say without an education, money, or a country that will allow you in ?
do not pass go, go straight to the ghetto.
The main thing that hung up the Dayton accords was Israels refusal of the right of folk who did move to return, and Arafat not selling them out...
Funny Israel didn't want Palestinians with money and / or educations to move back to their homeland...
BTW sorry to hear about your ancestors...
I can relate a little, two of my grandparents were from Poland. During WW2 they fought the Germans and ended up in a camp. I remember wondering about the tattoos when I was little.
Lets party like its 1939
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http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200911011272326
0741.html
Who will save Israel from itself?
By Mark LeVine
The Israeli government's justifications for the war are being scrutinised [GALLO/GETTY]
One by one the justifications given by Israel for its latest war in Gaza are unravelling.
The argument that this is a purely defensive war, launched only after Hamas broke a six-month ceasefire has been challenged, not just by observers in the know such as Jimmy Carter, the former US president who helped facilitate the truce, but by centre-right Israeli intelligence think tanks.
The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, whose December 31 report titled "Six Months of the Lull Arrangement Intelligence Report," confirmed that the June 19 truce was only "sporadically violated, and then not by Hamas but instead by ... "rogue terrorist organisations".
Instead, "the escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement" occurred after Israel killed six Hamas members on November 4 without provocation and then placed the entire Strip under an even more intensive siege the next day.
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According to a joint Tel Aviv University-European University study, this fits a larger pattern in which Israeli violence has been responsible for ending 79 per cent of all lulls in violence since the outbreak of the second intifada, compared with only 8 per cent for Hamas and other Palestinian factions.
Indeed, the Israeli foreign ministry seems to realise that this argument is losing credibility.
During a conference call with half a dozen pro-Israel professors on Thursday, Asaf Shariv, the Consul General of Israel in New York, focused more on the importance of destroying the intricate tunnel system connecting Gaza to the Sinai.
He claimed that such tunnels were "as big as the Holland and Lincoln tunnels," and offered as proof the "fact" that lions and monkeys had been smuggled through them to a zoo in Gaza. In reality, the lions were two small cubs that were drugged, thrown in sacks, and dragged through a tunnel on their way to a private zoo.
Israel's self-image
The claim that Hamas will never accept the existence of Israel has proved equally misinformed, as Hamas leaders explicitly announce their intention to do just that in the pages of the Los Angeles Times or to any international leader or journalist who will meet with them.
With each new family, 10, 20 and 30 strong, buried under the rubble of a building in Gaza, the claim that the Israeli forces have gone out of their way to diminish civilian casualties - long a centre-piece of Israel's image as an enlightened and moral democracy - is falling apart.
Anyone with an internet connection can Google "Gaza humanitarian catastrophe" and find the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in the Occupied Territories and read the thousands of pages of evidence documenting the reality of the current fighting, and the long term siege on Gaza that preceded it.
The Red Cross, normally scrupulous in its unwillingness to single out parties to a conflict for criticism, sharply criticised Israel for preventing medical personnel from reaching wounded Palestinians, some of whom remained trapped for days, slowly starving and dying in the Gazan rubble amidst their dead relatives.
Meanwhile, the United Nations has flatly denied Israeli claims that Palestinian fighters were using the UNRWA school compound bombed on January 6, in which 40 civilians were killed, to launch attacks, and has challenged Israel to prove otherwise.
War crimes admission
Additionally, numerous flippant remarks by senior Israeli politicians and generals, including Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, refusing to make a distinction between civilian people and institutions and fighters - "Hamas doesn't ... and neither should we" is how Livni puts it - are rightly being seen as admissions of war crimes.
Indeed, in reviewing statement
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Most of the time it seems many Americans feel that with every election they now have a clean slate...
People are sheep. Bush is Clinton is Bush.
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and how far would you move, say without an education, money, or a country that will allow you in ?
Yes, I tend to ignore the rules. to see how far, click on the I Intend to Misbehave thread and then click through the link on the third post.
Mr. Anderson, you feel that you are special, that somehow the rules don't apply to you.
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do not pass go, go straight to the ghetto.
They're acting too much like humans. A common fieldmouse has more sense.
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Israel
I'm familiar with the situation, and I skimmed the article. I agree basically that the Israelis are destroying the international Jewish image. Of course, it's just Ohlmert trying to save his ass, and the whole govt. is a sham. And sure, the PA govt. is undoubtedly a sham also, maybe govt. is just a sham.
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BTW sorry to hear about your ancestors...
Likewise, seems yours, like mine, followed my earlier comment "Didn't have to be jewish, all you had to be was in the way."
Jewish or not, no one cared, it was all about the labor camps and the corporations that ran them wanting more slaves. If not for that, the Germans would have probably followed through on their plan to deport the jews to Israel. It took three visits to Israel to get the Zionist authorities (they weren't technically Israeli authorities yet, it was still Palestine) to accept the 600,000 German jews as immigrants. This goes back to your who wants refugees idea.
It's really universal, not just on education and wealth. No one wants refugees. Populations have to move one family at a time, someone becomes a student at a university or something, etc.
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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Mind you look at some past acts...
Well, it's nice to see that you've dropped any pretense of balance and come out as a flaming anti-semite at last.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Pffth, calling the ruling regime of a country notorious for such deeds out on them does not in any way qualify for that distinction - they did do that shit, and keep getting a pass because of a ridiculous perpetual victim status they play up for all it's worth, which damn well oughta be revoked.
Besides, Arabs are semites too, does that make Olmert and his goons anti-semetic as well ?
Why is it that whenever someone points out the damn Izzies don't have any moral high ground when it comes to terrorism that someone screams anti-semitism - I could give a rats ass what religion or ethnicity they are, any of em, it doesn't make this kind of crap acceptable by any means.
Both sides are dickheads, we know this, lets not pretend that ain't the truth, my bitch is that one set of them has a massive edge on the other causing the exact set of conditions they once suffered under, and here we are propping that bullshit up with my tax dime.
I got *issues* with that, and all the other dickheads on the planet we shovel money at (who, you'll notice all eventually turn on us a'la Saddam) that was originally taken from my by threat of force and violence.
You take money from a live and let live kinda dude, by threat of violence/incarceration and then use it to finance slaughter and repression worldwide, it's gonna piss him off no matter who's doin it - do you think I like Papa Doc and his fucking goons any better ?
Am I then a racist for not liking *that* set of murderous pricks just cause they happen to be darker than me ?
You can hate folks for being dickheads without race, religion or even politics being a single part of it - since when have we cared about any of the former when some asshole decides to have a cellphone conversation in the middle of a movie you paid to see ?
It's their ACTIONS that make them an asshole, and so it is here - they're being assholes, they've been assholes for years, and I am sick and tired of apologists making excuses for any of em, especially the ones making wanton slaughter and destruction on a people who's land they're stealing - an official policy, helpfully financed by money robbed from ME.
So don't go hiding behind that tired ole canard when someone shines the cold light of reality on your carefully tended fantasies and they happen to disintigrate into their component parts of myth and imagination, either refute it, or argue the point if you can, but hiding behind false accusations and phony outrage just makes you look like an apologist with no real argument.
You wanna try telling us Israel did NOT do that historically proven, and often fully-admitted, stuff above ? that they're NOT just as much terrorists themselves as anyone they love to fling that beloved accusation at ?
Cause I'd like for once to see *some* rational explaination of their actions in detail that didn't come from me - I know why they did some of it, but past a certain point there wasn't any *need* to act in that fashion, and yet they continued to do so, care to explain that away ?
Or you could just leave it at hiding behind a trite accusation backed by phony outrage to avoid having to argue the point...
Up to you.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Bin Laden, on Tape, Urges Holy War Over Gaza
Wed Jan 14th
Mr. Potato Head "Re-re-resurfaces"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/world/middleeast/15mideast.html?_r=1
&ref=world
from the article:
“There is only one strong way to bring the return of Al Aqsa and Palestine, and that is jihad in the path of God,” Mr. bin Laden said in the 22-minute audiotape, according to The Associated Press. “The duty is to urge people to jihad and to enlist the youth into jihad brigades.”
Given imho that we need an ally in that region, and given this kind of behaviour, who you gonna pick if not Israel?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Pffth, calling the ruling regime of a country notorious for such deeds out on them does not in any way qualify for that distinction - they did do that shit, and keep getting a pass because of a ridiculous perpetual victim status they play up for all it's worth, which damn well oughta be revoked.
Besides, Arabs are semites too, does that make Olmert and his goons anti-semetic as well ?
Fremd. Read the whole article Gino quoted.
http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm
If it was just critical of the Israeli regime, I'd have no trouble with it, aside from its anonymous author and the reliability of the site it's posted on.
However, it attacks not just the Israeli regime, but the Jewish people as a whole. That's a whole other kettle of fish.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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These threads, no offense to the intelligent people who post them and on them, seem counter productive.
It doesn't really matter that much which side is more wrong, there's not going to be any change without diplomatic intervention, and at the moment, only Obama, or tptb forbid, Ms. Clinton can take that up.
It's interesting to discuss, but we do spend to spend a fair amount of time lobbing bombs at one another, and that time could be better spent. Not to mention, we seem to have broken River in the process. Maybe she'll recover and go back to being her old self. If she's beyond repair, then we'll have to go fetch another one.
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