revolution firefly
POSTED BY: RedRiver
UPDATED: Saturday, December 20, 2008 06:54
VIEWED: 9986
PAGE 4 of 5
My understanding of the Multiverse situation, from dealings with people who have done work with Fox and Universal, is that this is a fight between Fox and Universal's lawyers which is far from over. The reason that the MV project hasn't gone anywhere isn't only because they're a software company with zero game experience, much less MMOG experience (sound familiar?) but because Fox had to put a freeze on development while they're in litigation with Universal. That's the rumor around town anyway. So I highly doubt that Multiverse could snap anyone up if they wanted to. Universal would be all over them with their lawyers, just as they were when Fox and Multiverse first announced their deal.
Cease and Desist is how it will start, but that's not necessarily the end of it. If they don't abide by the C&D, they can be sued, have all the game assets taken, etc. And any of those, even just a C&D leading to total shut down, will send the community through yet another emotional rollercoaster. There are certainly Browncoats like you who say that you won't ever stop hoping, but there are a lot of Browncoats who want to be more realistic about the situation, whether we're talking about another movie or an MMOG.
And just to clarify one of my earlier points: It's not a crime to try to make an MMOG, even as a hobbyist. It's very difficult and expensive, but it's not a crime -- as long as the ideas come from your own head. The more noble challenge, IMO, would be to design an original game that appeals to fans of Firefly, without encroaching on any of Fox or Universal's licenses or copyrights. There are professional game developers who started out as hobbyists and got their original projects noticed, and then moved into being able to design games full time. It's not easy, but people have done it, and nothing in game development is really easy anyway.
~CK
You can't take the sky from me...
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My understanding is that it is only illegal if the game is published after being made, or released, but the process of actually creating it is not. I have read into it alot as this was a concern of mine and others, however alot of the information provided is very "gray" no real black and white, so the plan was essentially to create the game and then worry about the legality of release and such. Similar to fan fiction, or people who write novels for themselves.
As for the originality aspect, well this is the part that really erks me, and something I need to explain. I have had an idea like this long before I knew of firefly, I never saw the show until after the movie came out, and I loved it so much I bought the series. Essentially the universe I wanted to create was already created, Joss had beat me to it. I am glad, due to his profession he was able to do it better than I ever could. Seeing firefly, was like watching my ideas materialize. So I am essentially incorporating the firefly universe into my original Idea, because of the similarity, and otherwise it would be a poor imitation, like cheap wine.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
What if... What if the team starts to do such a good job, that people at Multiverse look their way and snap them up? Could be the project could become official, that's happened before, hasn't it? Then the whole stealing/ legal rights business wouldn't even have to come up.
Multiverse will want to use there own platform as they are doing for Buffy. Point of fact, there platform does not support free space travel, it only supports the whole walking around on "land" thing. So, no flying. So, not really FF/S. This may have played a role in the projects cancellation. So, it's more than just unlikely that Multiverse would "snap them up" if only for that reason.
I'll also point out that the cost of developing a MMOG is... significant (see a post by CK above). Multiverse is certainly not going to hand over all that to some group of fans that has zero experience. Nor would, I imagine, Fox or Universal allow that. They have just as much at stake for the MMOG not sucking as Multiverse does. No offence to the revolution FF people, but if you guys think that you'll get access to the franchise and the 10's of millions to develop the thing that would be needed, then you need your heads checked.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I don't want to see dreams cut down. And the last thing I want anyone to protect me from is hope... *shrug* No offense, but I like hoping. It feels warm and fuzzy.
At the very most, the team will get a cease and desist order. I'd like to see them try still.
And how does it feel when those dreams are cut down? Why not, instead of believing in false hope, encourage them to pursue something that is actually viable? Hoping for hoping's sake is something that dooms one to constant disappointment.
----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
My understanding is that it is only illegal if the game is published after being made, or released, but the process of actually creating it is not. I have read into it alot as this was a concern of mine and others, however alot of the information provided is very "gray" no real black and white, so the plan was essentially to create the game and then worry about the legality of release and such. Similar to fan fiction, or people who write novels for themselves.
No, that's not how it works. Infringing on IP/copyright is absolute regardless of money being made, release, whatever. I made reference to Nintendo sending an unfinished Adventures of Link project a DMCA take down notice above. That is provable. Go check it out for yourself if you like.
Also, fan fic is illegal as well, period. It's just that there is a line in which the companies will tolerate, but no further. Fan fic is something that is historically tolerated, games, no so much. Probably because fan fic has no discernible value whereas games do (no offence to any fan fic writers, but if you think that it would be possible to sell fan fic...).
Point of fact, the license for making a FF/S MMOG has been given out. Any project will be pursued with prejudice. If you want an example, just look at the fact that after a t-shirt license was given out, 11thhour (and the bluesunshirts.com guy) got told if she didn't stop with her t-shirts, etc, she'd get sued. That is provable. Go ahead and check if you like. The story is in the archives here if you want. Here's a search:
http://fireflyfans.orthogonalspace.ca/
Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
As for the originality aspect, well this is the part that really erks me, and something I need to explain. I have had an idea like this long before I knew of firefly, I never saw the show until after the movie came out, and I loved it so much I bought the series. Essentially the universe I wanted to create was already created, Joss had beat me to it. I am glad, due to his profession he was able to do it better than I ever could. Seeing firefly, was like watching my ideas materialize. So I am essentially incorporating the firefly universe into my original Idea, because of the similarity, and otherwise it would be a poor imitation, like cheap wine.
That may be true, but it does not change the legal situation that you'll be in if your pursue this project. And even if you change it to not be "Firefly" you still might be sued because of the similarity. Someone on the Multiverse forums mentioned that there is precedence for that sort of thing citing some laws (US I believe). And given how aggressive Fox/Universal's lawyers are being...
----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Yeah, it wouldn't be Firefly without the random crises inserted into the space travel and crew interaction parts. And using an engine based on the Buffy-verse... I can't see how that would work. The combat style and pacing would be just wrong.
Well, but as to dreams, and being cut down. Someday, someone's going to make a FF/S game. There's too many fans for it to not be profitable, and the source material has the quality to allow it to attract plenty of newcomers. Heck, it's been years, and look how many people keep finding their way to this fandom.
I'm reasonably assured that even legal issues won't stop people from trying to make money for long. It's in the best interests of people and wallets to get those resolved.
And hey, you never know what can come of execs realizing there's still a lot of interest out there.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Yeah, it wouldn't be Firefly without the random crises inserted into the space travel and crew interaction parts. And using an engine based on the Buffy-verse... I can't see how that would work. The combat style and pacing would be just wrong.
You'd be surprised just how different the same engine can behave in two different games. For instance, Ratchet and Clank and Resistance use the same engine. But, there pacing, look and feel, etc are quite different.
Though, I'm not sure just how Multiverse has set-up there platform. As in, if they cared about keeping it as general as possible (which seems to be there goal), then they wouldn't have made a full blown engine. More like a skeleton of one that could be taken in different directions. And from skimming things, there plug-in framework seems to support that notion. I could be wrong. But, here's hoping. There business model depends on that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm reasonably assured that even legal issues won't stop people from trying to make money for long. It's in the best interests of people and wallets to get those resolved.
And hey, you never know what can come of execs realizing there's still a lot of interest out there.
Well, legal issues will stop people from making money. If Fox/Universal doesn't allow it, there's nothing else that anyone can do about that. It is there property.
Hopefully, someone will come along and present them with something that they like and that same company will act as a go between between Fox and Universal to get things worked out. But, that is just wishful thinking. Most definitely a practical impossibility.
But, as CK has stated elsewhere, they will sit on a property until it becomes viable for grand profit. And that could be over 20 years from now. Who knows. So, I wouldn't hold my breath.
I know it sucks. But, this is the legal consequences of getting that movie. Lawyers, eh?
EDIT:
@RevolutionFirefly:
I'd like to point out that Hardcopi is lying to you on your forums. No-one on these forums, nor his own for his game, said his project was "impossible." What people (read: I) pointed out was that there was critical flaws in the framework that he was using. And here's the kicker, he acknowledged them! He just didn't think that the situation that would cause them (many users) would happen. So, he's ignoring them. Search the archives for that thread if you wish.
There is also the thing about him saying that he's been programming professionally since 1995. Well, that isn't terribly likely because of things that he was told about back then. Namely, refusing to use any kind of SCM, developing on the production server which caused regular breaking (while playing), using players as guinea pigs while they were playing (e.g. killing them to test some code), asking for help, accepting help, then not allowing people to help, etc, etc, etc. And then when people got mad at him when he did these things (who wouldn't get mad at there ship being destroyed or the site regularly breaking, or...), he didn't seem to understand why. Seasoned professionals don't do this, they don't behave like this, they don't develop like this.
Sorry, but I can't let people lie about there qualifications and history which would give credence to what they are saying and not point it out. But, even if that guy has been programming since 1995, my... fucking... god. With development practices like that, it's a wonder he has stayed employed.
EDIT:
Oh yah, another little tid bit. He didn't take it off-line for eight months because of being attacked. His server crashed and he couldn't find a backup. So, it stayed off-line. Proof:
http://verse.fivestarcomics.com/2008/10/found-my-backup.html
"""
News
Saturday, October 25, 2008
Found my backup...
Apparently I am not as big a dummy as I thought. I found full site backup I did with all the current stuff from the Verse game. I went ah
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I had a long post here. Forget it, this is not worth it.
Good luck on Revolution and ignore the attacks.
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Just a friendly reminder...
The Potato People are over THERE.
THEY'RE people with potatoes.
THEIR potatoes are yummy.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardcopy:
Good luck on Revolution and ignore the attacks.
There's the rub though isn't it. No-one is attacking him. People are pointing out that this idea is flawed for a variety of reasons from it being impractical time wise to legal reasons. But, no-one is attacking.
I'm always in wonderment as to why people can't see the distinction between the idea they have had, and themselves. Between when flaws are pointed out v.s. attacking him/her or the idea. Yah, it sucks to have an idea shot down. But, ignoring problems with them can only lead to bad places. In, this case, the best case scenario is wasting a tonne of people's time and the worst case is getting sued. The outcomes on either end of that scale and everywhere in-between will also yet again hurt the community with false hopes. None of that is a good outcome. It would be insane to ignore that.
Ever wonder why the games industry is so successful putting out games? It's because people sit around and come up with ideas (brainstorming) and each idea either gets shot down or saved. Then they organise those ideas into something cohesive which invariably results in tossing out a lot of what was saved or continuing to save them for other games and/or sequels. Then that overall arch is fine tuned which will probably involve tossing out more ideas. But, all that is restricted by the resources they have at there disposal (e.g. man-power, expertise, money, time, etc).
No-one takes it personally. It's just part of the process of creating a game. In fact, it's part of the process of creating other creative things as well as the non-creative. But, it's all listened to and compromises are always made. It has to be this way as nothing would get done otherwise and each project would be a mess of ideas going in every direction.
Hardcopy, your project is reasonable time wise, but you still have the possibility of getting sued. There's also critical and fundamental flaws in the framework you're using, as I have pointed out prior (and, I should mention, I offered to help fix), but you've explicitly stated that you don't care and are willing to chance the risk. That's fine as your game will run merrily along, as long as not too many people are playing at the same time. But, if too many people do... problems. And you'll have to deal with that if/when it happens. Which, again, you said you're ok with.
But, the problem with this MMOG, which you seem to not see, is that the critical flaws are in every aspect, if not only in the various details of its implementation. Many of which are listed above.
Also, I'll point out what your answer to us pointing out flaws is: rhetoric. We come around and say, here's why this isn't practical and won't work. We give examples and cite law and even mention alternative solutions. But, you come out and instead of entering in a discussion of why we are wrong, perhaps point by point, you just basically say, "Ignore them. They are mean and wrong." Do you seriously expect that to hold water?
Seriously, if you're not willing to support anything that you say, then why say anything at all?
----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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General response to SigmaNunki:
I do not feel attacked, I am annoyed that some people are unable to open their minds a bit. However I realize you have already made up your mind about what you feel is going to happen and that is fine. I think you are being pre-mature in shooting down the ideas so vehemently, however if that is what you want to do, by all means. I realize your concern for the community is one reason you are trying to convince me to scrap it, your motives may be admirable, but not your goal, atleast not from alot of people's stand point. That being said, I do apreciate the support from hardcopy regaurdless of his expertise. I also realize I may have to make sacrafices, but I will not make so many that I lose sight of what I want.
You see, despite all of the arguements you have made. I have had several people claiming to be professionals with similar qualifications as you contact me with questions, I am currently engaged in discussion with a few of them, one has offered to play a consultant type role for our lead programmer, although I have suspicions about this person's duality. At any rate alot of qualified people are coming to me and offering to help, and that outreach of people wanting to help makes me believe it can be done.
As I have said, I grow tired of debating this, and I really just wanted to let you know, I realize you where not attacking me personally, Earlier I let myself throw a few cheap shots about your qualifactions/expertise, and I apologize.
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