Information Overload
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 22:45
VIEWED: 6362
PAGE 3 of 6
Uh huh, and your definitions of "abuse" also means instruction in religious beliefs you do not agree with, and you advocated blatant defiance of due process and the law for the "system" to have it's way with the FLDS kids, despite me pointing out with hard evidence right in hand that said "system" offered *more* potential for abuse than where they were.
Do you really think I have forgotten that ?
That I ever will ?
http://168.215.229.9/mthread.asp?b=18&t=33401
For my part I am damned glad we did manage to get most of the bad apples off of that tree in the end, and without condemning those kids to a fate worse than the horribly traumatic emotional and pyschological damage already done to them at the hands of folks more interested in the destruction of a belief system they did not agree with than any noble cause, however they pretended to it.
Sorry if I find your own credibility sorely lacking on the subject due to your own prejudices on the subject and your faith in a broken system.
As for those within the "circle of trust" which are some of the most common and harmful abusers once again your intentional and purposeful misrepresenting and distortion of my position on these things falls flat in light of me repeatedly pointing out Protect.orgs "circle of trust" and "incest exception" campaigns which I am fully on board with - a fact you ignore every time you come at me with the same tired lies and distortions.
http://www.protect.org/Campaign/Minnesota/Minnesota-Circle-of-Trust-Ca
mpaign.html
Quote:
But the situation is not one of unrelieved, endless, uniform child abuse. Most children are raised by at least one well-intentioned adult (single parent) whose only faults are not being omniscient or omnipotent.
Once again, I am well aware of that, and instead of supporting them with actual functional resources, we encourage them to send them to these hellspawned facilities rather than admit their own failings and work to correct them.
Or simply blame the children and medicate them, yeah that's such a perfect solution to parental inadequacy, isn't it ?
Many parents are out of their league by virtue of a society that requires so much time and effort to be invested in pure survival that there's just not enough left over to do right by their kids, and I work against that factor as well, something you also felt the need to not mention given your innate biases and faith in a clearly broken system.
You can't even stick them on grandma anymore cause you had to cut her loose and dump her in a home somewhere so that time seeing to her needs can be spent undercutting the other guy for the one position not about to be outsourced so you can *maybe* make your house payments.
And you completely and totally distort my position with your final statement, deliberately inflating it to strawman proportions for the sake of not having to argue the facts of the matter, which are that our society is quite rife with this kind of thing, and that there are several tremendously profitable corporate industries based upon it that have little to no benefit to the children who are seen as little more than property and certainly less than pets by a legal system that doesn't dare consider them human beings because of the impact that would have on a very lucrative status quo.
And yes, I do have an issue with public schools beating down children in that fashion, demanding parents medicate them into compliance and suggesting they be sent off to the camps, and it's bloody obvious why grinding that particular axe is of such importance to me, being that I collect the salvageable human wreckage left behind by those policies and turn it to the potential ending of them.
When simply demanding an explaination for something, when asking to be treated as a human being, is considered a mental illness, something is very very wrong with our educational system, in my opinion.
And maybe YOUR reality, your nice comfortable place where you never have to drag an unconscious fifteen year old girl out of some nasty, filthy hellcamp in the dark while
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
ETA I (gasp!) agree with DT. You gotta separate the important from the unimportant. I don't stay plugged into the news... in fact, I barely watch/ listen. We're awash in crap.
I agree as well. There was some point in my life when I realized that most of my expectations of how to react in any given situation were based on TV shows, movies and books. (I wasn't the most social kid and didn't have attentive parents, so this was pretty much my social experience.) It didn't work so good. Fiction is carefully constructed, and characters can do things that real people in real life just can not.
I've had to make a conscious effort to learn to interact with real people, and to define myself based on what *I* want, rather than what Disney or McDonalds thinks I ought to want.
I admit, it's rather sad. But I'm not the only one. I've seen folks here argue about the course the country should take based on TV shows. "But it worked on 24!" At least I was never that far gone LOL!
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Frem
12 (or 13, depending on report) FLDS men have been charged with child abuse due to at least one count of underage marriage each. By rough calculation, that's fully 11% of adult males in the compound. Remember, we're not talking about males doing this in secret and against the law, but according to a system of beliefs to which everyone was subject.
My belief is that little girls shouldn't be systematically groomed for underage sex and handed off to men as rewards. You got a problem with that ? Bring it.
Yes, our economy is broken. It's all about getting the rich even richer, no matter who or how many suffer to make it happen. And to that end, of course there are few or no resources for parents at wits end. And as you know, I hope, I am against that system.
And BTW - I never said child abuse doesn't happen, or that there are no places for people with money to pay who specialize in 'reforming' children. Seriously Frem, I know more than you think.
But if you're trying to convince ChrisIsAll, or SignyM, or the other good parents on the board who interact with other parents and the school systems that this is rampant, you will just get the big headshake as people drift away.
And I have one further word of advice - get out of your own way.
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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According to official statistics, a million children are abused every year. Because of under-reporting that figure could easily double, possibly triple. MOST of the abuse is parental neglect. Some of it is institutional. And some of it is fostered or preyed upon by procurors who cater to whims and fancies of the wealthy and powerful. I have absolutely no doubt that this happens and that is is horrific. (And BTW, you should ask Rue about the children that she saw at County hospital.)
But there are about 84 million peeps who meet the legal definition of "child". So while the raw NUMBERS of abused children is truly startling, in everyday experience, out of the perhaps thirty children that are in your child's class, there is a good chnace you will see none at all, and what you DO see is most likely neglect.
So the average experience is.... pretty bland. Frem, I understand your passion. We ALL need to stand up to child abuse.
BTW- How do you feel about that unintentional "safe haven" for older kids?
---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.
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Frem,
If you talk, and do not listen, you won't get your point across.
It's not my job, as a random member of the audience, to seek out your message. It's your job, as the writer, to portray that message to the audience.
So far, objectively, I've read many of your posts, and have enough experience with horrors of all kinds, esp. the kinds you describe, to be able to understand and respond to your message. Yet I still don't know what the h you are talking about.
Now, before you find fault in your audience for not understanding, take some time to reflect on your message and how you convey it.
1. Overwhelmingly, you deal in particulars and abstracts without ever mentioning the generals and specifics. Start with something that we are familiar with. Rehab? Public school? Juvie? What are we talking about? The military?
2. From there, walk us through with specific stories, rather than just a sense of horror. Connect the dots for us.
3. It can always be said shorter. Your rant just now could probably be chopped in four without losing an ounce of meaning. This is what Strunk and White is all about. It's a difficult art, but it will increase your audience, it's core to writing.
4. The attitude here of "If you don't understand me that's your problem" reminds me strongly of a friend of mine, who is an aspiring writer. Everyone is a writer, if they communicate on a forum or blog or on the screen. But this attitude will not attract an audience. Proponents of this position believe that they will attract the people who care, or believe, or are smart enough, good enough to be their audience. But they're wrong. This attitude only selects for people who are bored enough, nothing else.
Nothing personal, I like you, and I think your posts are some of the more insightful on the board. But these rants are pure emotional outpour.
Quote:
FREM
something is very very wrong with our educational system"
Understatement of the year. But I still don't get what you do. Try to start at the beginning. Find your inner terminator, drop the emotional OD for a second and just try, 200 words or less, or as succinctly as possible, the problem, and what you do. That would be a good start. And, a small favor, avoid hyperbole like hellhole not because it's inaccurate, but because it's non-descriptive. Hell-hole could define about 1000 institutions out there right now. Top on my list would be Bagram.
Chances are that we're liable to be in agreement on this issue, but not until I can wade through the tears to get to the actual story.
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It all comes down to the breakup of the family.
When it is no longer an OPTION for women to work, but a NECESSITY, then the children ALWAYS suffer.
Throw in a healthy dose of "it ain't my fault/problem/issue" (not to mention the whole self-involved/important b.s.) and these camps and what-not start sprouting all over the place.
When did we forget that we are responsible for our own behavior?
Personally I think it was during the 60s...but thats for another thread.
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Quote:
Swish
I realized that most of my expectations of how to react in any given situation were based on TV shows, movies and books.
This is by design. It's how the media controls behavior. Most people are in the same boat. I think that most of us considered ourselves unpopular, it was the image cast, that we were always unacceptable.
I didn't go to school, and that created a large social disconnect, about which I know jokingly say "but I didn't have to experience it, because now I have Buffy." But to some extent it's true. So, it can work in a positive way, its just that most information doesn't, because there is an endless amount of useless manipulative divisive and malicious content amidst an even larger sea of random greed based and ego based content, that decent information is hard to get to, and hard to get out.
The most profound message to me in Buffy is that the main characters are always the out-crowd, and yet, in perspective, they are the most popular kids in school. Our main characters have people that are there for them when they need them, even in extreme circumstances, and moments of intense personal doubt. Note The "popular" Harmony clique drops Cordelia in a heartbeat when it looks like a good idea. I suspect this is also close to reality.
I hope everyone has watched the show and knows what I'm talking about. Anyway, it's helped me relate to normal humans who went to school.
In doing so, and a couple years of teaching, I have to say that my impression is that, from an outside objective perspective, the system appears insane and beyond repair.
As a side note, I'd add that I spent a couple years helping and sheltering runaways in an unofficial capacity, and that the single most damaging aspect of their lives was usually their actual families, parents, step-parents, and I could tell some stories that I probably shouldn't, but if Frem is reading, he probably gets that we have some perspectives in common on this.
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Rue, Siggy, the question is - how much of that are we willing to accept, to tolerate ?
My tolerance for it is a hell of a lot lower than most folk due to direct experience with the end results.
Dreamtrove.
I done already said, it cannot be soundbited.
Lemme see what I can do, 200 words or less, but I am pressed for time, and without the emotional overtones to humanly connect it with a persons inner self, to even try is downright meaningless.
-F
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Wulf,
I was a child in a single parent household where my mother worked for what didn't really cover food on the table, let alone heat. As I said, we didn't go to school, and we had a total income of 3-4k/year.
You grow up fast, and learn to deal. I don't think it's a weakness, it's just life. I don't think I got a raw deal. I wouldn't change with someone else.
Sure, we all back-rationalize our lives in this manner, but it makes us who we are. I like the Sarah Connor Chronicles a lot. It feels a lot like home. I get irritated at John Connor for being too much a piece of furniture, and not being responsible like Cameron or Sarah. I find myself saying grow up JC.
Now I have to figure out what's making my fan go on and off on my new linux system.
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What is it that I do ?
I wreck havoc against the systems in our society which are destructive to a childs development with their humanity intact, and the reason I am vague about it is that some of those actions I really would not like traced back to the folk who carried them out.
My part in matters other than a leadership role is almost wholly destructive in nature, and that has become less useful over the years as public knowledge of these places grows and such sabotage is less effective than exposure.
Consider me, if you will, a form of black ops specialist not working for a government or political faction, but rather for the single remaining section of our species that has no other voice politically, financially, or socially.
More or less the person who wove the underground networks that work against these places from the isolated threads of those maligned by them who managed to survive.
-Frem
There, prolly more than 200 words, but that's the barest minimum I can cut it to, there's just too MUCH information to cut it down like that, you're asking me the equivalent of teaching you particle physics in three days - it just ain't possible.
EDIT: There, cut out the spacing too, was pressed for time and forgot, anyhow, gotta go.
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