revolution firefly
POSTED BY: RedRiver
UPDATED: Saturday, December 20, 2008 06:54
VIEWED: 9986
PAGE 3 of 5
It all sounds fair enough.
Although it has to be said, if it's Firefly, and it's free, a lot of people will be interested. I mean, heaps of people still play the original FF games, original Zelda games, and people still play Runescape, so it's possible you'd get quite a lot of users.
I do understand though that it would be a lot of work and that you have no assurances that people would play that style of game in this day and age.
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I'm going to have to strongly agree with Sigma on all his points, and point out a few others.
First, for the record, I am a professional MMOG designer, and have been for about 6 years now. I've been in the MMOG industry professionally since 1995. I have worked at big corporate studios, and I have worked at small start up companies. I have done design work for some of the biggest licenses and companies in the industry, both as an employee and as a consultant. I have consulted for companies that were a long shot with very little money, some of which made it but most of which did not, and I have consulted on projects that had more money than god, including some that have been mentioned in this thread and on the Revolution Firefly site.
I typically do not tell anyone online about my career, because I am often mobbed by questions and requests, and I value my privacy. However, this whole Firefly MMOG idea has gone too far, so I feel I can't keep quiet anymore.
Sigma is right that this project is way beyond any realistic capabilities. Having no game industry experience, much less professional MMOG experience, is a recipe for failure. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single MMOG that had a team without any game industry professionals on it that went on to succeed, since Meridian 59 in 1996. Even experienced game developers often have trouble with the complexities of creating an MMOG.
But that is not my biggest concern with the continuing rash of fan-run Firefly MMOG projects. Every single one of these projects, no matter who you have on the team or what your past professional experience is, is doomed to fail. Fox and Universal will send their armies of lawyers after you as soon as you put anything resembling a game of any sort online. They have been arguing over the rights to the MMOG between the two of them for several years now, and they must defend their license rights, even against the smallest of threats. It doesn't matter if you think your project couldn't be any threat to a professional MMOG, and it doesn't matter if no money changes hands. Fox and Universal must defend their licenses, so that they can continue fighting each other for the rights. So if you ever managed to get anywhere with this project -- which would be an amazing feat unto itself -- Fox and Universal would shut you down just as you got ready to debut your hard work to the world.
I typically am not one to discourage anyone from pursuing work in the game industry, but there is a huge difference between using someone else's property illegally, and creating something out of your own mind and creativity. There are independent MMOGs that have succeeded, Puzzle Pirates being one of the best examples, but it takes experience, money, hard work, and your own creativity, not a license owned by a multinational corporation. If you want to make games, either start looking for a job in the game industry, or come up with your own original ideas, self-finance, self-publish, and realize that no matter how revolutionary your ideas are, they will not change the industry or topple giants like Blizzard or SOE.
Do yourself a favor, scrap this now. There are legal, viable paths to getting into game development, and this is not one of them.
~CK
You can't take the sky from me...
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Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
There is no skill tree, perhaps you did not quite understand, fine.Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, then you don't need to take a basic medic course before you can proceed to the next level of training as you explicitly explained in your vision document, eh? Unlikely. You just think you don't have a tree because you're not doing skills like everybody else. Point of fact, if you need to complete something before you can move on, you have a tree. Deal with it.
>>> This would be an example of people who hear, but do not listen. I am not sure what the literary equivilent would be, but I think you get my point. First, Never was it said that you where required to take any course in order to do the trade associated with a profession. Seeing as, all of these "skills" will involve direct player involement, if a player is able to figure out the in game system for a certain profession without taking classics, there will be nothing stopping them from self teaching. The classes are there as a guide. I made it very clear, that the classes are there to TEACH THE PLAYER, NOT THE CHARACTER.Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I actually know what you're not capable of because I am familiar with the technology required to do it. I am familiar with the time it takes to build such things because I've done stuff like this before. Because, I am a professional programmer.
>>>> Do not assume you know any more information than what is presented to you. You cannot say you know we are not capable, because I have people on my team with the same(apparently better) qualifications as you.Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You on the other hand, aren't familiar with these things. You have an idea that you think you can do. And although I have no doubt that you can design what you want to do in your vision on paper, that is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is that visions practical implementation.
>>>>> You are right, I am not familiar with these things, but people I have with me are. Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You're going to have to either ground yourself, or fail. There is no in-between. Because, this isn't the movies where the scrappy underdog with the great idea succeeds in the end. It's reality, where scrappy underdogs get squished unless they see the light.
So, you have a choice. You can either listen to me, someone with greater knowledge, skill and experience, or fail. Pick whichever one you want. Neither will bother me unless you continue to get this community's hopes up for something that hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding.
>>>> Again, you seem to be adressing this project as an individual, when in fact our numbers grow by the day. I was not aware I was getting peoples hopes up, I make it pretty clear that this is a last ditch effort, if people choose to have faith and assist us, then I believe it can be done. Apparently others do aswell. You seem to like throwing around the word professional, fine. Just a little lesson, professional is term used to describe an occupation. Being a programmer may be your job, so you are a professional, but do not assume for one minute, that because you are being paid to do it that it means you have more knowledge than those who are not.
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Quote:Actually, that's exactly what it means. MMOG design and development are not topics that are taught well anywhere yet, not in schools, books, or online. So it isn't a topic you can learn about without doing it professionally. And even then, nearly every profession in the world pays experienced practitioners more than those who are directly out of college/training, because prior experience is such an important asset to any team, no matter what industry or occupation. If experience didn’t equal greater knowledge, insight, and understanding, then recent college grads would be paid the same as those who had been in the industry for decades, and that simply isn’t the case, in the game industry or most other industries. Game design is known for being classically difficult to break into if you don’t have previous professional game design experience, and there’s a reason for that.
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
You seem to like throwing around the word professional, fine. Just a little lesson, professional is term used to describe an occupation. Being a programmer may be your job, so you are a professional, but do not assume for one minute, that because you are being paid to do it that it means you have more knowledge than those who are not.
It’s a common fallacy among aspiring game developers to think that they know better than professional game developers. We call these people “armchair designers”, because it’s easy for you to sit in your comfy chair far removed from the actual work of development and point out all the things that the designers/developers are doing wrong, without understanding a single thing about the reason those choices were made. Most armchair designers never go beyond the point of complaining about existing design choices and boasting that they could do so much better than the highly-paid professionals. Those who do move beyond the armchair and actually try their hand at making games always come to the same conclusion: “Making games is hard.” The vast majority fail, and those few who do succeed realize quickly how idiotic they were to criticize the professionals.
This is far from the first time I’ve seen your exact same situation, and it won’t be the last I’m sure – probably not even the last one I’ll see this month. But for the sake of the health of the Browncoat community, could you please work towards your “making games is hard” epiphany without involving the Firefly license? Nothing but heartache will come from this, both for those involved in trying to make this game, and for all those who see your crazy plan and think it could actually come to pass. Browncoats deserve better than to be jerked around yet again.
~CK
You can't take the sky from me...
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You know what, this is childish, on everyone involved in this arguement, myself more so for even trying to defend the goal in the first place. I did not want so many, non developers involved this early, but because I knew none, I had to make a few forum posts here and there asking for help. People responded, we got to talking, lead programmer was found, and design document well on the way. However, we have nothing yet to show that we have accomplished anything, and people coming into this post will see nothing but bickering. I dont want people to be introduced in this way.
Part of the problem is that I enjoy to argue, and part because I hate it when people tell me I cannot do something. I hate the narrow mindedness that so many people have, but what can I expect so early? I let myself get out of hand. I'm done here, it solves nothing, it is certainly not helping my goal any. Alot of talented people have taken interest and offered to help, more than I expected this soon, I was hoping to have the design document finished before people started getting interested, but well it happened faster than I had anticipated and I liked that. I dont want this to turn into a huge storm of drama though. I never even posted on this site because I knew what would happen, but the word is spreading.
I am not going to stop production, I am going to go as long as I can. Certain people learn the trade because they have a passing interest, some because they just fell into it, and some because they have a passion for it. We have passion. As I have said, I realize that we may fail, but you people make it sound as if it is a crime to try. It seems that with every increase in technology, and with every new generation of gaming, the basics just get reset. People stop trying things that are different. Here I am being told that independent developers never get anywhere, Halo was made by independent developers(team of around 10), microsoft baught the company and made alot of changes(for the worse in my opninion), the point being that it can be done. It will be hard, it will take alot of time and patience, but stop telling me it is impossible. CaliforniaKaylee, you call me an armchair developer, but your essentially doing the same thing to me, telling me that the idea is flawed and the plan is crazy without having all of the details.
I dont know, I have no personal grudges or complaints about any of you, if it ever came off that way I am sorry. I'm just so damned tired.
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Quote:This is something that a lot of first time developers run into when they announce their projects to the public too early. Professional MMOG developers know that it's best not to talk about it at all -- no webpage, no blog, no press releases, no one outside of the family of those involved being told what is being worked on -- until you have something to show, to avoid these sorts of second-guessing problems. A design doc is light years away from functioning gameplay, so until you have things actually implemented, it's all just talk.
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
I'm done here, it solves nothing, it is certainly not helping my goal any. Alot of talented people have taken interest and offered to help, more than I expected this soon, I was hoping to have the design document finished before people started getting interested, but well it happened faster than I had anticipated and I liked that.
Quote:IT IS A CRIME TO TRY. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. You are stealing someone else's work for your project. That is illegal no matter how you slice it, and eventually Fox and Universal will send their lawyers after you -- assuming you don't pitter out or go up in a flash of smoke like all the other many, many fan-run Firefly MMOG projects have.
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
...but you people make it sound as if it is a crime to try.
Quote:And Portal was originally design as a final project by a handful of college students. But it took intervention from professional game companies to turn those projects into the blockbusters they ended up being. Neither is a valid example of independent game development.
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
Here I am being told that independent developers never get anywhere, Halo was made by independent developers(team of around 10), microsoft baught the company and made alot of changes(for the worse in my opninion), the point being that it can be done.
That said, at no point did I say independent developers never get anywhere. What I said is that no MMOG team with zero experience has brought a game to any success since Meridian 59, over 12 years ago, and that was largely because when it came out in 1996, no one knew what a MMOG was yet. I have worked for a lot of independent studios, as well as several big corporate multinational companies, and I do think that the most innovation is going on at independent studios. But I also know that people who have worked 3 to 10 years at corporate game developers make the best independent developers, because they learned how to make games without having to learn how to run a company or market a product at the same time.
And I know how difficult it is for independent teams to get funding, even when they have multiple team members with 10+ years of experience. I was on a team once where every department head, every VP, the CEO, all the early team members had 6+ years of professional game experience, many with over 10 or 15 years, and every single one of them had worked on top-10 games, titles that anyone reading this thread would recognize and likely have played. We were considered a "strong team" by the investors we talked to, but they weren't tripping over themselves to give us money. We, just like everyone else, had to get to work and make a prototype before anyone would fund us. And that was the best case example -- I've worked with dozens of independent developers who didn't have nearly as strong a team, and who struggled to scrape together the $10 to $80 million it takes to make an MMOG. Being independent may allow you to be more innovative with the gameplay, but it certainly is not easy.
Quote:I didn't comment on your design.
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
CaliforniaKaylee, you call me an armchair developer, but your essentially doing the same thing to me, telling me that the idea is flawed and the plan is crazy without having all of the details.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigRichard:
It all sounds fair enough.
Although it has to be said, if it's Firefly, and it's free, a lot of people will be interested. I mean, heaps of people still play the original FF games, original Zelda games, and people still play Runescape, so it's possible you'd get quite a lot of users.
I do understand though that it would be a lot of work and that you have no assurances that people would play that style of game in this day and age.
It's a risk assessment. And you definitely have valid points. But, it's that last part that I'm afraid of. People playing it for a bit and finding it kitsch, but, not continuing to play it. So, years of work to "finish" something that very few people would play. Just can't get behind that.
----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
>>> This would be an example of people who hear, but do not listen. I am not sure what the literary equivilent would be, but I think you get my point. First, Never was it said that you where required to take any course in order to do the trade associated with a profession. Seeing as, all of these "skills" will involve direct player involement, if a player is able to figure out the in game system for a certain profession without taking classics, there will be nothing stopping them from self teaching. The classes are there as a guide. I made it very clear, that the classes are there to TEACH THE PLAYER, NOT THE CHARACTER.
NO. You said in your vision document that at the end of the training they get a med kit and go on there marry way able to do something. That is different from what you're saying now. Please, don't try to rewrite history when you've now changed your mind on how it will work. That or mis-written it in your vision document.
Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
>>>> Do not assume you know any more information than what is presented to you. You cannot say you know we are not capable, because I have people on my team with the same(apparently better) qualifications as you.
I have multiple pieces of paper and well over a decade of experience. You have ONE programmer (unless that changed since last time I looked) and from his picture he looks to still be in school if not just graduated. To borrow from above, I would say that his 'eyes are bigger than his stomach'.
Every programmer that I know, including myself, loves the idea of a challenge. BUT, you will find zero seasoned professionals attempt to seriously tackle a MMOG in there free time. Why? Because, we know better.
Now, I don't doubt that the kid knows how to program or is a nice guy. But, that is very different from experience. He will, like you, learn that this sort of thing is out of his league. Hopefully sooner rather than latter. I'd hate for him to waste too much time and energy attempting something so far out of reach. When instead, he could be doing something that would actually be productive. Because, a finished project is what studios are looking to see from potential employers. Not lessons learned from failed ones.
I've also shown you through example and logic, from many different angles, that this project is doomed. So, has CK. You not being able to see that doesn't stop what I (and CK) am/are saying from being true. So, you now, in fact, have two professionals telling you the same thing. I'm starting to wonder if you'll ever see the light.
Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
>>>>> You are right, I am not familiar with these things, but people I have with me are.
More than just arguably not. You may have people that think they are familiar with these things. But, they most definitely don't. Just thinking that it can be done is evidence enough for me to make that statement.
Quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionFirefly:
>>>> Again, you seem to be adressing this project as an individual, when in fact our numbers grow by the day. I was not aware I was getting peoples hopes up, I make it pretty clear that this is a last ditch effort, if people choose to have faith and assist us, then I believe it can be done. Apparently others do aswell. You seem to like throwing around the word professional, fine. Just a little lesson, professional is term used to describe an occupation. Being a programmer may be your job, so you are a professional, but do not assume for one minute, that because you are being paid to do it that it means you have more knowledge than those who are not.
What CK said. Add CK's posts to the above as well while you're at it.
I'll also point out that, from the last time I've read your forums, you are only getting more people on the design/music/art/etc side. This is a moot point until the tech side get
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RevolutionFirefly, I wish you and your team the best of luck with your project. I hope it will work out as you plan.
I will head over to the site to check out the forum. I am no computer expert, but I will be happy to provide feedback and suggestions if they are wanted.
__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!
Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:
http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org
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http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html
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What if... What if the team starts to do such a good job, that people at Multiverse look their way and snap them up? Could be the project could become official, that's happened before, hasn't it? Then the whole stealing/ legal rights business wouldn't even have to come up.
I don't want to see dreams cut down. And the last thing I want anyone to protect me from is hope... *shrug* No offense, but I like hoping. It feels warm and fuzzy.
At the very most, the team will get a cease and desist order. I'd like to see them try still.
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