Rumsfeld, Bush approved Iraq torture policy

POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Saturday, December 11, 2004 17:27
VIEWED: 18296
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KUKOO

Friday, May 21, 2004 7:23 PM

This may be slightly off-topic, but I have always thought it was interesting how Firefly Fans seem to be at such opposite ends of the political spectrum. I believe the reason why is in the way Fans view the Alliance.

Liberals tend to view the Alliance as the end result of the path the Bush Administration has set us on. Declaring that the Geneva Convention isn't applicable to the war, creating a new name for prisoners and criminals so they can throw the Bill of Rights out the window and hold them indefinetly, being able to shroud key policy meetings in a viel of secrecy so that the public cannot determine how decisions were made and the build-up and reckless use of the Armed Forces. Under this theory, River and Simon were probably listed as "enemy combatants" by the Alliance.

Conservatives tend to view the Alliance as the end result of too big a government with too much control over our daily lives. i.e. too many social programs and laws regulating behavior and business. Mals quote about governments being there to get in a mans way would support this theory.

I think the Alliance is a mixture of both. It is the worst aspects of the two current parties rolled into one. It is as if the special interests (maybe the forerunners to the Blue Sun Group) took over both parties and pushed them into one. The point of a 2 party system is to balance each other out, and the absence of a second party is what makes the Alliance so scary and powerful.

PS Thanks ghoulman for posting the link, the article was awesome and very informative.

FIREFLYFRIEND

Friday, May 21, 2004 7:50 PM

The Alliance is definately like Bush.

SERGEANTX

Friday, May 21, 2004 7:53 PM

...and then there are those of us who see the Alliance, ideologically, as relatively neutral. It's mostly just a large centralized government, for good or bad. Naturally, from the point of view of the former Independents it's bad. But the actual story seems less clear.

I think this was intentional. Most of the actually Alliance officers we've seen have been neutral or even leaning toward genuine concern for humanity. The Blue Hands certainly seem evil enough, but we really don't know how they fit into the Alliance power scheme.

To me it almost seems as though Joss went out of his way to NOT have the principal bad guys be Alliance. The worst we've seen them do, puttin aside the blue hands, is ignore the plight of the frontier people.

I think we're seeing the Alliance in much the same way a Southern soldier might have viewed the U.S. feds after the Civil War. I DON'T think Firefly is meant to be an allegory, but it is a valid comparison.

The thrust of the series so far has been the personal search for hope and redemption, not the heroic struggle of the Independents against the evil Alliance.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

GHOULMAN

Friday, May 21, 2004 8:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kukoo:
This may be slightly off-topic, but I have always thought it was interesting how Firefly Fans seem to be at such opposite ends of the political spectrum. I believe the reason why is in the way Fans view the Alliance.

Liberals tend to view the Alliance as the end result of the path the Bush Administration has set us on. Declaring that the Geneva Convention isn't applicable to the war, creating a new name for prisoners and criminals so they can throw the Bill of Rights out the window and hold them indefinetly, being able to shroud key policy meetings in a viel of secrecy so that the public cannot determine how decisions were made and the build-up and reckless use of the Armed Forces. Under this theory, River and Simon were probably listed as "enemy combatants" by the Alliance.

Conservatives tend to view the Alliance as the end result of too big a government with too much control over our daily lives. i.e. too many social programs and laws regulating behavior and business. Mals quote about governments being there to get in a mans way would support this theory.

I think the Alliance is a mixture of both. It is the worst aspects of the two current parties rolled into one. It is as if the special interests (maybe the forerunners to the Blue Sun Group) took over both parties and pushed them into one. The point of a 2 party system is to balance each other out, and the absence of a second party is what makes the Alliance so scary and powerful.

PS Thanks ghoulman for posting the link, the article was awesome and very informative.

Holy insightful Batman. Nice one! Just wanted to acknowledge the brilliance.

Oh, and SERGEANTX, I am on Kukoos' side as to the Alliance being a cypher for the USA but your comments are certainly not to be sneezed at either.

I wonder if a thread about this metaphor (something Joss loooves to throw out there) woul;d be fun?

HKCAVALIER

Monday, May 24, 2004 3:41 PM

So how come this article isn't all over the news by now? This news has been available for a week, why aren't I hearing about this on tv? The New Yorker isn't exactly a fringe media source, what gives?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:31 PM

^^^ are you living under a rock? This was the story that broke the fact that the torture is happening in more than one prison. This was the story!

MILORADELL

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:44 PM

I am so very, very tired.

Does anyone feel like we're straddling a juggernaut, about to make a fateful turn - it could be good, it could be bad, and it's as scary as all holy hell?

I keep thinking of my sister-in-law's unborn twins, and what kind of a world they'll be inheriting, and if they'll even realize the differences between the past and their 'now'?

I am so very, very tired.

btw - I think the term "deregulation" refers to the FCC's recent changes in rulings, and the tacit support it's received by the admin. possibly also recent efforts to toughen corporate law, which the admin, again, is working to gut.

****
“By definition, a government has no conscience. Sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more.“ Albert Camus

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 7:12 AM

Golly, Ghoulman, perhaps I have been under a rock. The substance of Hersh's article puts Rumps-felt at the top of a chain of command fully aware of the torture and very much endorsing it. It was systematic. It states that the president was briefed. But none of this has been on the front page. No one is calling for Rummy to resign anymore and no one's even talking about the torture anymore. Once the six folks at the very bottom of the food chain were sacrificed last week, it's been business as usual. Hasn't it?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

RUE

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 7:51 AM

It's like Vietnam all over again.

It took riots. It took civil disobedience. It took deaths. And that just got it onto the news.

I never want to hear the puke about the 'liberal media' again.

BROWNCOAT1

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 7:20 PM

The true problem lies in the fact that the American public as a whole knows very little of the truth. The government hides what it wants to, filters the info it feels is acceptable to be seen by the American public, and the media slants most of what is shown.

News sites and sources have their own agendas, reporting on things w/ a definite political leaning in one direction or another.

The Federal government is rife w/ corruption, cover ups, and blatant violations of national & international law. What is sadder is that the American people are so busy choosing sides and supporting this or that political camp that they can not agree on a way to solve the problem. Seems to me the government, media and television have done a terrific job of making all of us complacent to the point of blind acceptance.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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