Some ruminatin' . . .
POSTED BY: Static
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 01:53
VIEWED: 3058
PAGE 2 of 2
Things have a tendency of escalating don't they. It may have started off as something a little stupid like who could get away with doing something, but, over time things would get worse without intervention.
You can't seriously think that I'll believe that something of this magnitude went on for any period of time without anybodies superiors knowing that it was going on, do you?
And for the record, the word is torture, *not* abuse. One of the other threads that discussed such things had a quote from the Geneva convention that stated that such things (ie you reference keeping naked, etc) is torture. You must be aware of the fact that torture is described in physical and mental terms, right?
You say that you are not minimizing it, but, that is exactly what you do when you call it abuse instead of torture and call into question things that have been brought to light.
And I never said that it was a huge conspiracy thing. I said:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, from only these two points we get some pretty disturbing stuff. Such as, if we assume that this torture isn't going in some wide spread manner then this is just the first incidence before the damn breaks.
Which is about human behaviour, not some conspiracy theory.
There have been studies done where people are divided in two groups (one the prisoners, the other the guards) and then put in a mock environment to see what happens. Every time the guard group became sadistic (Stanford 1971 I believe).
So, if you put people under an extreme amount of stress (ie an US soldier in Iraq) something like this is only a matter of time.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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I recommend folks read this:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact
Seymour Hersh is pretty well respected, and has sources; and his report hangs together, imo.
Now I'm off to the ICRC site to see what they got....
Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Things have a tendency of escalating don't they. It may have started off as something a little stupid like who could get away with doing something, but, over time things would get worse without intervention.
You can't seriously think that I'll believe that something of this magnitude went on for any period of time without anybodies superiors knowing that it was going on, do you?
And for the record, the word is torture, *not* abuse. One of the other threads that discussed such things had a quote from the Geneva convention that stated that such things (ie you reference keeping naked, etc) is torture. You must be aware of the fact that torture is described in physical and mental terms, right?
ok. I think you and I agree on some of the things.
And I've read the Geneva Convention about a couple of thousand times now. If you operate in the frontline areas like I did (or anywhere close enough to it where you might be in danger of having the lines breached and your ass end up behind the lines), you damn well remember how the heck you should be treated should you become a POW. IAC, What I am trying to convey is those comparatively menial things versus getting your head bashed in, having your eyelids glued wide open, having each of your bones in your body broken slowly over a period of time, and having your skin slowly flayed off your body is a bit different then getting your food couple of hours late and left naked in a cell. Yeah, it's all described rather broadly as *torture*, but I think it's a little different and rather a broad range of things would be considered *torture*. Torture is someone else's words - however we label it, it's fine - by law, you are not suppose to do any of it. But I would just like it to be recognized that there are a million different shades of things that fall under all of that category. And some of what I've seen fall under the "panty-waist" side of things as compared to the "Holy Shit, keep that away from me, I am eating dinner, for crying out loud" middle of the road, and definitely different from "Christ, I thought they did away with those kinds of machines back in the middle/dark ages". Maybe you are right, maybe they have more "drawn and quartering", "the stretcher", "the Iron Maiden", "the hot poker in the eye" stuff that we haven't seen yet. (Oh, and let's not forget the slowing drawing out of the entrails - bonus goes to the one who names that trick)
But then again, maybe there isn't any. And what we've seen is it.
The abuses that I talked about were the things that people are bitching about at the other camps, detentees getting bumped or shoved in the line. To me, that's a bit more harassment than being abusive.
All of this PC crap is getting out of hand - soldiers can't even curse at each other (ok, you are not supposed to, but cursing still goes on). It's like we are going to hurt each other's feelings - for God's sakes - we KILL people for a living. We are supposed to worry about cursing and calling each other bad names?
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You say that you are not minimizing it, but, that is exactly what you do when you call it abuse instead of torture and call into question things that have been brought to light.
And I never said that it was a huge conspiracy thing. I said:Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, from only these two points we get some pretty disturbing stuff. Such as, if we assume that this torture isn't going in some wide spread manner then this is just the first incidence before the damn breaks.
Which is about human behaviour, not some conspiracy theory.
There have been studies done where people are divided in two groups (one the prisoners, the other the guards) and then put in a mock environment to see what happens. Every time the guard group became sadistic (Stanford 1971 I believe).
So, if you put people under an extreme amount of stress (ie an US soldier in Iraq) something likeNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Static,
I like your point over all about seeking approval. Not necessary. If we are going to have troops there though we should supply them with the things that will help them stay alive. Perhaps having ARMORED transportation and such would be a good idea. But no sending that is more expensive than losing lives. I do have to mention that our worst day in Iraq is better than some of the best in Vietnam.
To address the prisoner abuse scandal however I would like to point out that these things happen probably every day in American prisons with victims who are citizens of our country. Interesting how no one is making a huge stink over that at least not in the media. Question. Has any one seen a film such as Helter Skelter that makes one wish that the perpetrators burn in a special place? Who at some point has not said fry the sucker? How are our people who have been captured being treated?
We are not dealing with a western culture in any sort of form it is completely alien to what people in the US are used to. If anyone thinks that deep down all cultures are alike have the same belief systems well you need to go find yourself a little more education. Cultures are vastly different and theirs is nothing like yours. They may share the same “God” as a branch of the Abraham family but they assimilated a vastly different cultural origin and value system.
It is easy to sit thousands of miles away from the point of origin and receive second hand reports and criticize. One can not say with a hundred percent certainty that you would have done the same thing if you were in that position. The armed forces are a family of sorts, and if a group is killing one’s family members, it tends to piss one off.
If you truly want the war over quickly the best way to do it is pour money in. Yes I know that it is expensive but it is less expensive than being over there for years as a police force. Taking away money only limits what we can accomplish.
"The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility." -Admiral Sir John A. Fisher
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
And some of what I've seen fall under the "panty-waist" side of things
...
I haven't really seen any of those, but, then again, our personal definitions are probably somewhat different.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Maybe you are right, maybe they have more "drawn and quartering", "the stretcher", "the Iron Maiden", "the hot poker in the eye" stuff that we haven't seen yet.
...
But then again, maybe there isn't any. And what we've seen is it.
Rummy himself said that we've not seen it all. So, the question remains, will we and how much worse is it? Only time will tell.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
The abuses that I talked about were the things that people are bitching about at the other camps, detentees getting bumped or shoved in the line. To me, that's a bit more harassment than being abusive.
It only depends if that bumping or shoving is just that or done with the butt of a rifle. If the former I'd say grow up. If the latter, well, to put it mildly, that isn't so nice.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
All of this PC crap is getting out of hand - soldiers can't even curse at each other (ok, you are not supposed to, but cursing still goes on). It's like we are going to hurt each other's feelings - for God's sakes - we KILL people for a living. We are supposed to worry about cursing and calling each other bad names?
I definitely agree with the PC crap getting out of hand. Over here in North America we've been flooded with certain terms that we can't use because that group (or someone "defending" that group) says that it's offensive. So, then we have the term of the week for a lot groups in society. I find stuff like that going on bloody well ridiculous.
But, in Iraq given the cross-cultural aspect there, I think that when dealing with the Iraqis, the US should handle it will extreme caution. After all, when arresting someone you usually put them on there stomachs on the ground, which usually means the forehead to the ground as well. The last here being *extremely* offensive to the Iraqi people.
I'm just saying that being PC in some cases may be appropriate and will stop some misunderstandings from happening. After all, the US could really benefit from stopping misunderstandings right now. Well, with the latest developments and all.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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