700 Billion Bailout
POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Sunday, September 8, 2024 21:33
VIEWED: 7614
PAGE 6 of 8
Quote:(I may be misunderstanding you, but...) I disagree in the sense that a governmental position is more permanent than a person. ie, the position of POTUS has been around for over 2 centuries and (barring disaster) isn't likely to go anywhere. On the other hand, if a particular president got evil and took all governmental power onto his/her personal self, he/she would likely be alive for 40 years tops and then things could reset.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I do not like the transfer of unreviewable power to any department.
On the other hand, I would not like the transfer of power to any individual, either.
Can you imagine how you would feel if a law was passed that gave X power to "George Bush" instead of "the President?" We can always impeach the Pres, ya know? I'm sure we could replace the Treasury Secretary, too. But the only way to get rid of 'person Y' is to hire a hitman.
In any case, I wasn't at all advocating that any kind of powers ever be given to a person, since I take it as obvious that that would be... well, stupid. I was just pointing out a weakness to KR's idea that this bill is okay because Paulson is a good guy. Laws should never based on one person, but allow for all those who may come after, good and bad.
Is my understanding anyway. I'm no political scholar. Just raised to believe that the Constitution is pretty cool.
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Swish beat me to it. This legislation is worth throwing out for this reason alone "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."
If Paulson happens to get replaced for some reason, do you really think they'd change this law for the replacement? Nope. So, I'm 100% on the page Swish has detailed.
==
Having been gone for a few months, it's nice to see that some things never change. Finn's 'gay love' comment above would have amused me if I were not so utterly appalled at the situation we find ourselves in.
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Quote:
Originally posted by swish:Quote:One of the fundamental tenets of law-making, as I understand it, is to never ever justify laws based on a single personality. Do you really not see the danger in that?
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Normally this type of language would be a deal breaker in any legislation, but Hank Paulson is highly respected on both sides of the isle and in the financial community. He is also friends with the Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee (D)Barney Frank. Paulson has been in charge of a lot more money than this as Chief Executive Officer at Goldman Sachs and proved himself honest and capable.
As Sergeant says, this may not stay a temporary measure. (How about those "emergency acts" after 9/11? How much of those erosions in our freedom have gone away?) And please note - this bill gives power to the office of the "Treasury Secretary", not to "Hank Paulson". That office might be filled by god-knows-who someday. Do you really want to risk that? Even if this is allowed to expire, do you really want to set this kind of precedent, of giving dictatorial power, a complete free pass, to one individual?
Seems to me like every one here agrees that this is not a good thing, but if the alternative is a melt down of the financial system we really don't have much choice. As I was saying earlier, when it comes to the point that Money Market Funds become temporarily worth 97 cents on the dollar, a run on the banks is the almost inevitable next step. All the banks and brokerage houses could have gone under and that might not have forced the Feds hand, but when an investment that all believe to be entirely safe turns out not to be, people begin to panic. This is going to happen now no matter what, I'm just saying if it has to happen Paulson's the one you want in charge. If anyone alive can make this turn out positive for the taxpayers he's the man. Hopefully the legislation will be designed to sunset without super-majority approve every 6 month or so. If the Dems get the White House and hold congress you can be sure that they will try to perpetuate the program indefinitely.
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Kirkules wrote: "but if the alternative is a melt down of the financial system we really don't have much choice."
Big 'if'. I like the approach detailed here:
http://hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc080922.htm
Leave the bondholders eat the loss from their capital reserves.
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But we are told that we need not fear; because those in power, being our representatives, will not abuse the powers we put in their hands. I am not well versed in history, but I will submit to your recollection, whether liberty has been destroyed most often by the licentiousness of the people, or by the tyranny of rulers. I imagine, sir, you will find the balance on the side of tyranny. Happy will you be if you miss the fate of those nations, who, omitting to resist their oppressors, or negligently suffering their liberty to be wrested from them, have groaned under intolerable despotism!
The honorable gentleman who presides told us that, to prevent abuses in our government, we will assemble in Convention, recall our delegated powers, and punish our servants for abusing the trust reposed in them. O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone; and you have no longer an aristocratical, no longer a democratical spirit. Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation, brought about by the punishment of those in power, inflicted by those who had no power at all? You read of a riot act in a country which is called one of the freest in the world, where a few neighbors cannot assemble without the risk of being shot by a hired soldiery, the engines of despotism. We may see such an act in America.
In this scheme of energetic government, the people will find two sets of tax-gatherers — the state and the federal sheriffs. This, it seems to me, will produce such dreadful oppression as the people cannot possibly bear. The federal sheriff may commit what oppression, make what distresses, he pleases, and ruin you with impunity; for how are you to tie his hands? Have you any sufficiently decided means of preventing him from sucking your blood by speculations, commissions, and fees? Thus thousands of your people will be most shamefully robbed: our state sheriffs, those unfeeling blood-suckers have, under the watchful eye of our legislature, committed the most horrid and barbarous ravages on our people. It has required the most constant vigilance of the legislature to keep them from totally ruining the people; a repeated succession of laws has been made to suppress their iniquitous speculations and cruel extortions; and as often has their nefarious ingenuity devised methods of evading the force of those laws: in the struggle they have generally triumphed over the legislature.
Where I thought there was a possibility of such mischiefs, I would grant power with a niggardly hand; and here there is a strong probability that these oppressions shall actually happen. I may be told that it is safe to err on that side, because such regulations may be made by Congress as shall restrain these officers, and because laws are made by our representatives, and judged by righteous judges: but, sir, as these regulations may be made, so they may not; and many reasons there are to induce a belief that they will not. I shall therefore be an infidel on that point till the day of my death.
It is on a supposition that your American governors shall be honest, that all the good qualities of this government are founded; but its defective and imperfect construction puts it in their power to perpetrate the worst of mischiefs, should they be bad men; and, sir, would not all the world, from the eastern to the western hemisphere, blame our distracted folly in resting our rights upon the contingency of our rulers being good or bad? Show me that age and country where the rights and liberties of the people were placed on the sole chance of their rulers being good men, without a consequent loss of liberty! I say that the loss of that dearest privilege has ever followed, with absolute certainty, every such mad attempt.
==========================================
And so the chickens come home to roost..
Like Mr Henry, I too have little faith in the supposition that elected officials with limitless power
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KR - you're offering a false choice. We might indeed be facing a complete economic crisis, but does that mean we must take such a drastic and foolish step? Why not just include oversight?
This is pretty much exactly like what happened after 9/11 - in a time of crisis, extreme legislation was forced through by a mob, and soon we had no habeus corpus. A pillar of what makes western society great, gone.
And now I see the same thing brewing - the White House will say: but you must pass exactly this, NOW, or you risk ruin for all Americans! Which is the same choice you're speaking of, KR, and it's BS. It would be so easy and should be absolutely mandatory that any official of the government have some accountability and that the process be transparent. Especially in a job this big and important!
My god, after the past 8 years, how you possibly not be demanding accountability?
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Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
This is pretty much exactly like what happened after 9/11 - in a time of crisis, extreme legislation was forced through by a mob, and soon we had no habeus corpus. A pillar of what makes western society great, gone.
And now I see the same thing brewing - the White House will say: but you must pass exactly this, NOW, or you risk ruin for all Americans! Which is the same choice you're speaking of, KR, and it's BS.
That's the way we're governed now. The media have become little more than a propaganda ministry, in charge of keeping us frightened and desperate. So scared, in fact, that we'll let the motherfuckers who created this mess push it off on us.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Sarge, it's come to my mind of late that we damn well oughta start applying the school of thought we defend our weapons with... to our wallets as well, long past time for it, you ask me.
MOLON LABE!
(Come and Take them/it from me!)
We stop meekly handing it over, we could grind them to a halt in pretty short order, although I've almost no faith in the will of the people to do that, just yet.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Fred, et all.
So what the fuck do we do about it?
At this point, Im ready to fight back.
B/c right now they are going to have the taxpayers paying for it.
So in essesnce, they will be garnishering my wages so that I can pay for them bailing out the idiots who bought a McMansion. And I'm helping them take over the Free market.
So what can I do?
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Wulfie, that depends on how much personal risk you are willing to assume.
Ed Brown, for example, wanted to make a statement, and he did indeed make it, at great personal risk to himself - but the media tried their damndest to quash it, and he paid dearly for it in the end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown
Protestors are quite regularly beaten, subjected to hostility, illegal surveillance, having crap planted by cop-agents, etc.
I'm not so much trying to dissuade you, as making you VERY aware of the realities of what you will have to face - the nail that sticks out, begs for the hammer, you understand.
In the end, you've only got like four choices.
Play it by the book, aboveboard and legal, take the card sharpers marked deck and play at his table by his rules...
Or join an organisation and pray it isn't actually run by folks who just wanna collect resisters in one place for easy surveillence and pacification...
Or go hog wild and end up like Ed Brown...
Or play rough, play dirty - go underground and dig in so damn deep that you don't even remember the last time you used your own name, commit yourself to a lifetime of smoke and mirrors and manipulating others like some demented puppeteer, burning up your own humanity to the point where you begin to actively despise the very people you're trying to help, who if they ever knew of your existance would probably hate you thanks to the vilification of anything outside the status quo by the mass-mainstream-media...
Or some useful combination of the above, like playing by the rules by manipulating them against the sharper every chance you get, for example.
I would say, for you, for most... is to start out small, get some boot all in the ass of your local politicians, straighten them out and make them tremble in your very presence, this is especially helpful if you can drum up any kind of community support at all - the offhand, halfass support of a hundred folk is better than the rabid support of ten, when it comes to politics, since most folk are so damned apathetic anymore to begin with, you'll not have any opposition initially, and they might even be somewhat "Friendly" to you playing the "So nice you're taking an interest" game...
And then when they realize you're not just shlepping for a pat on the head and a quick bribe, and you're NOT going to get bored and go away, it'll turn... nasty, their kids will key up your car, slash your tires, their buddies will try to convince your boss to fire you - if you're smart, you'll be ready, turn that against them and then use anything and everything you've quitely collected to bury the fuckers.
And then you keep the iron fist on the rest of em, if you're so inclined, run for it yourself, especially if you live in a town small enough that no one much cares who runs it anyway.
And you play it hard, and straight, and be prepared to devote much of your life to it, cause once you have solidified your position and prepared a successor (preferably several) who shares your ideals, you take it the next step up, again and again, as far as you're willing and capable of going.
Sadly, there's no quick fix, no easy way, and you will need other people - your primary task is to learn, and fully develop, the ability to gather, motivate and lead them, or at least pull the strings of someone who can.
That's about the limit of any advice I would share, and I apologize for that, but the nature of the times makes it self explanatory why I would not, and will be no more specific than I already have.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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