Yet another interesting Firefly technology comment
POSTED BY: millernate
UPDATED: Saturday, November 2, 2002 02:30
VIEWED: 4840
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I came on the following thread in the groups.google.com archive of Usenet posting and I thought this might be interesting. The comment is at http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl75285204d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&oe=UTF-8&selm=89ee99ea.0210291153.43b64f78%40posting.google.com&rnum=16 But (since this is a big long link and I can't be sure it will work) I think I'll quote relavent parts here:
Quote:
From: Cabby (I'm erasing the e-mail just in case)
For future colonists to have lower living standards than today, their
contemporary civilization has to have the same living standards as
today. Only with FTL travel, cryostasis, advance food concentrates and
forcefield barroom windows. This assumption is unreasonable and flies
in the face of the history of science. Just the few advances seen
would have a staggering number of technological spinoffs, not to
mention all the advances needed to make them even possible. Advances
in technology result in an ultimate increase in standard of living.
Exceptions can always come into play. But as such, they need to be
mentioned.
When people colonize, they don't just leave everything behind then go
poke a stick in the ground around their new home world and hope not to
starve (these people are called refugees or immigrants and can be
discussed later). Colonists bring their stuff with them. High and low
tech. Whatever they'll need to survive and live reasonably
comfortably. High on the list of stuff they'll bring are things they
can't make themselves or easily replace. Moreover, they are probably
colonizing under the auspices of a government or corporation, which
translates into more high standard of living technology to encourage
people to leave civilized worlds and make the colonies successful.
But here's the real problem. What we have seen so far in Firefly:
agrarian colonies living a 19th century subsistence existence with
virtually no modern technology. If this is the exception, rather than
the rule, it should have been pointed out as such.
There's more but I think this will do for now
Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star
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Technology is dependent on economic strength. Without sufficient economic strength the state of technology will suffer. You cannot build a PC if you cannot produce industrially pure silicon and/or germanium or some other sufficiently pure semi-conducting material. That is a fact. And you cannot carry the equipment needed to produce computers on your back. That requires sufficient economics strength. This clown is suffering from the same Star Trek-itus that so many other people are. He/she is brainwashed into believing that technology must necessarily advance. That is not the case. Technology is a function of economy. If you don't have the economy, then you don't have the technology. What year it happens to be is totally immaterial.
On this guy's particular issue, he is ignoring that the explanation for the depressed state of economy has been given. A war was fought 6 year prior to the events in question. It was also pointed that it was a particularly bloody and destructive war. Wars have a way of destroying economies if they go on long enough with enough strength. After a 10 year war with Russia Afghanistan recessed nearly 500 years in some ways. Why is it so hard for people to accept a similar theme in Firefly? Especially when it has been pointed out that the war was something akin to a World War not just a regional conflict.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Well, it seems my post only shows the danger of selective quoting becuase the original answered some of your objections (I'll answer the first one then let part of his post answer the other and I should mention that the individual in question does not seem a Star Trek fan):
Quote:
He/she is brainwashed into believing that technology must necessarily advance. That is not the case. Technology is a function of economy. If you don't have the economy, then you don't have the technology.
Yes but you are overlooking something: Namely that in colonizing an area the driving authority (colonization tends to be far too expensive to not have some underdriving power behind it, with only a few very rare exceptions). Also, technology does always advance unless you have a catastrophe of truly massive proportions (aka the center of learning in that segment of society is more or less completely destoryed ala the fall of Rome, or something as massive as the Black Death, but that affects all learning and not just Tech which does not seem to be the case). Otherwise, except for those exceptions I mention technology either advances or at the very least stays static. It does not go backward. As for your war objection:
Quote:
On this guy's particular issue, he is ignoring that the explanation for the depressed state of economy has been given. A war was fought 6 year prior to the events in question. It was also pointed that it was a particularly bloody and destructive war.
This particular objection was handled later in the guy's post (remember my comment on the dangers of selective quoting) were he stated:
Quote:
The only justification for the conditions seen is war, and it is only
offered in the vaguest fashion. If the original settlements were
destroyed, along with all of their high tech amenities, then the
places we see would be called refugee camps, not colonies. In fact,
switching the terms goes a lot further in justifying the extreme
technological discrepencies. If these places were penal colonies, that
might also make sense. But this doesn't seem to be the case.
If the Alliance swept through and seized all high tech gadgetry after
the war for reparations, then this would be another good reason for
Mal to hate the Alliance and would bear mentioning when he walks
through the results of it.
Any of these explanations would go a long way to adding depth to the
story.
Either there is a very important piece of the puzzle yet to be
revealed, or I was wrong: This is a Western papered over with SF
elements with no rhyme or reason.
Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star
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I would just add the following:
If the Alliance is now the sole controlling power, one could assume they would have a relative monopoly on technology. Doesn't the intro mention something about people moving beyond the control of the Alliance? This would put them beyond the reach of this technology. In addition, we have seen high tech worlds in the new opening credits. It was also pointed out in another thread somewhere that there are people running around in the 21st century on earth with animal skins and pointy sticks. Technology doesn't automatically permeate through an entire society. Case in point: the Amish.
If you expect every group of people to have access to technology, you should brush up on the history of this planet before you ridicule a CONCEPT OF THE FUTURE. This is also Joss Whedon. Metaphor, children, metaphor.
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Hear, hear. We may have iPods and space stations, but we're the biggest economy in the world. There are people living today in other parts of the same planet that live like people did thousands of years ago. Stretch that idea over the space of... space, and you got some backwards planets. And no, we do not know how much the colonists could take with them. In space travel, every cubic inch is precious, and expensive. Look at Mal's quarters on Serenity. He's the Captain, and his quarters make my dorm room look like a mansion. The colonist may not have been able to take much at all, techy or otherwise. Also, an electrically powered device generally only works if you have electricty to power it. I didn't see very many Druacell plants on the planets Serenity's visited...
________________
You know, I think the thrall has really gone out of our relationship.
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Quote:
Hear, hear. We may have iPods and space stations, but we're the biggest economy in the world. There are people living today in other parts of the same planet that live like people did thousands of years ago. Stretch that idea over the space of... space, and you got some backwards planets.
See there is one glaring logical problem with that: The countries/socities that would colonize these areas would be from the wealthiest (and thus highest tech) areas/socities. I mean did the poorer countries colonize america? No it was the wealthier English, Dutch, Spainish (in the beginning), and French who did.
Quote:
In space travel, every cubic inch is precious, and expensive.
Well, unless the colonizing authority is completely and utterly idiotic (I'm talking *badly* stupid here folks) then they would have a ship that would posses a huge variety of technological goods for the use of the colony as a whole (much like Spainish/English colonist ships had a huge hold of items for use by the colony).
Quote:
Also, an electrically powered device generally only works if you have electricty to power it. I didn't see very many Druacell plants on the planets Serenity's visited...
I would think that by this point they've mastered: Solar Power, cold fusion, or some other clean, relatively easily-renewable power source which would be relatively easy to import (heck, part of the concept of the show requires them to have developed it, otherwise how does Serenity fly?). Heck, Solar power is nearly at that point now (nearly 500 years before Firefly is set). Have a heavy duty energy storage device hooked to a solar power collector and charge your items from that. I wouldn't say this is hard.
Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star
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Quote:
Originally posted by millernate:
Yes but you are overlooking something: Namely that in colonizing an area the driving authority (colonization tends to be far too expensive to not have some underdriving power behind it, with only a few very rare exceptions). Also, technology does always advance unless you have a catastrophe of truly massive proportions (aka the center of learning in that segment of society is more or less completely destoryed ala the fall of Rome, or something as massive as the Black Death, but that affects all learning and not just Tech which does not seem to be the case). Otherwise, except for those exceptions I mention technology either advances or at the very least stays static. It does not go backward. As for your war objection:
I'm not overlooking that, it's just not relevant. There is no reason to believe that there cannot be a large disparity between the states of technology before and after the war. There's no reason to believe that the Alliance is not itself struggling to recover from the affects of the war. Furthermore, the distances between planets/moon may complicate re-establishing trade routes.
Technology does not magically just advance. There are reasons why technology advances, and those reasons center around available resources which only come into place via a sufficiently strong economy. Technology is dependent on the state of the economy. If the economy is not strong enough the technology may not advance and may even recess. Technology did recess following the fall of Rome, because the economy collapsed after the fall of Rome. So if the economy collapses far enough technology WILL recess.
For example:
If the economy collapses so that you can no longer produce computers, then you will eventually run out of computer. When you run out of computers will be forced to revert to a RECESSED state of technology, pen and paper for example. In this recess state of technology you will loose the advantage computers offer to technological advancement which will further slow any technological development and can even compound the economic recession, theoretically spiraling into a Dark Age or at least a major depression. So technology can recess if the economy is not strong enough. Technology is a function of economy, not date.
And I don't know why you aren't making the connection between your proposed "catastrophe of truly massive proportion" and the depression in the economy. This catastrophe affects the economy which in turn affects the technology. However, I think an interplanetary war of sufficient intensity might qualify as a "catastrophe of truly massive proportions?"
Quote:
Originally posted by millernate:
This particular objection was handled later in the guy's post (remember my comment on the dangers of selective quoting) were he stated:
Actually this guy seems to be missing the point. It is not the destruction of the colonies themselves, necessarily, that may have caused the recession in technology. It is the destruction of the economy. There's a connection between these events and the stability of the economy.
Of course, I'm not the writer so I don’t know what they had in mind. It is not a stretch to understand that the War destroyed the economy which in turn recessed the technology. That's a perfectly reasonable explanation. Many of the points this guy has brought up could very well add dimension to the storyline, but I don’t believe they are necessary to explain the state of technology.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Quote:
Originally posted by millernate:
I would think that by this point they've mastered: Solar Power, cold fusion, or some other clean, relatively easily-renewable power source which would be relatively easy to import (heck, part of the concept of the show requires them to have developed it, otherwise how does Serenity fly?). Heck, Solar power is nearly at that point now (nearly 500 years before Firefly is set). Have a heavy duty energy storage device hooked to a solar power collector and charge your items from that. I wouldn't say this is hard.
Solar Power requires you to be able to produce solar panels. If solar panels are hard to come by as they might be in depressed economy, then it may be hard produce a solar power plant.
Cold fusion is myth.
And I believe I remember seeing that some of the colonies do have electricity, it's probably a safe bet they may be producing it with some electrical power plant. Now if you are of the mind, you may want to believe that they have some old or refurbish fusion/fission power plant that survived the war or maybe solar if you want. Just because they don't point out that there is a fusion power plant near by does not really constitute a plot hole.
I'm not trying to criticize anyone's opinion. I just don't see any plot holes or lacking explanations so far.
-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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The opening voiceover of the show doesn't give a lot of data about how the colonizations were done. We don't really know what history has been like between our own "present day" and the Firefly present, except that there was a recent war that the rebels lost. Those colonies could have been founded by force--nations from Earth-that-was rounding up undesirables or just their own oppressed citizens and dumping them on a freshly terraformed planet to make their own way, and not spending money on lots of technology.
Or, another possibility--the voiceover says that Earth was used up. Maybe the colonists didn't want to use up their own planets and so have deliberately kept their technology levels down (except for mag trains I suppose) so as to avoid poisoning the planet or using up resources. This contradicts the clean energy source idea, of course, but a "dirty" one could be used freely in space if one had enough shielding.
Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher
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Okay, this guy *really* sounds like a brainwashed Trekkie (or however they spell themselves).
Many good arguments here for the tech-level seen on Firefly.
Not much to add but a real life, real history example perhaps- straight from the time we call the "Wild West".
Pick any year during that era, let's say 1875, get a time machine, travel back, step out of it first in New York, Boston or Chicago, then back with your butt in the machine and this time travel to the frontier towns in the west.
Look around and be amazed.
Looks like you made a *big* jump in time again but all you did was travel geographically.
As somebody clever here already said- the only difference we have here is that it's not a continent this time but stretched out in space.
Showed an episode to an old history professor on campus.
The old guy just blinked and muttered:
"Damn. This is brilliant. And prolly what it will actually look like."
On a sidenote: Yep, he watches Firefly too now.
Let the recruitment continue ;)
See you in space, pardners:
Silverado.
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