Simon and River's Parents Involved in River's Abduction
POSTED BY: BrowncoatBear
UPDATED: Friday, January 28, 2011 00:34
VIEWED: 15118
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I agree to that to some degree... by the time Simon is planning a rescue, there is quite a possibility that the Tams knew that there was some truth in his accusations. They chose to ignore it, to disbelieve, and play it safe, as you said. That is a far cry from aiding, abetting, and abduction, considering we know that River went by her own accord (see the Tam sessions). I think the Tams will be truly shocked if they ever get to see River, again, just as Germans citizens were when they found out they were living less than 5 miles from Nazi Concentration Camps, which horrified them, if you want to use a WWII analogy and how the Nazi’s ruled with intimation and fear.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I agree to that to some degree... by the time Simon is planning a rescue, there is quite a possibility that the Tams knew that there was some truth in his accusations. They chose to ignore it, to disbelieve, and play it safe, as you said. That is a far cry from aiding, abetting, and abduction, considering we know that River went by her own accord (see the Tam sessions).
Very true. But, that's not really mentioned in the Tam Sessions, but rather in Simon's explanation of how things went (Serenity the episode I believe).
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I think the Tams will be truly shocked if they ever get to see River, again, just as Germans citizens were when they found out they were living less than 5 miles from Nazi Concentration Camps, which horrified them, if you want to use a WWII analogy and how the Nazi’s ruled with intimation and fear.
I most agree. But, I think that that analogy is more brutal than what was going on in The 'Verse. Well, at least we don't know of any events (and none were alluded to) that would be along those lines (or at least on that scale).
I think that the Alliance ruled with a more subtle "iron fist." Perhaps something more akin to the government in Aeon Flux (movie).
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I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Actually I have written documents whjich prove that the Tam's parent and some grassy Gnoll planned this abduction form the day River was born. jk :)
http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
Platonist,
It is pretty clear from my understanding that River showed no psychic abilities until her time in the academy. There is no refernce to such ability in any of the back story.
You're forgetting the R. Tam Sessions. The quote I have in my signature is from there. River had since an early age shown to have a powerful intuition. The interviewer in the first Session seemed to have been extremely interested in this talent of River's. She may not have been a true psychic until the experiences in the Academy but she had shown that she had a talent for it. Like Joss Whedon says of Jubal Early in the OiS commentary: "so intuitive as to be almost psychic". In River's case, the Academy turned the almost into real.
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Quote:I agree. I see none of the usual sibling rivalry from Simon. He's nothing but proud of River. Just watch him when he says she makes him look like an idiot - his chin is high. He doesn't understand that as an insult to himself, but a high compliment to her.
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
1. I don't think Simon was involved because he is always patient and caring, and never jealous of River...
Quote:Well... but I get different meaning out of platonist's point here. To the elder Tams, the Alliance is not just a power structure, but is their nation and their identity. It'd be like a wealthy couple in today's America being told that the kid they proudly sent to West Point is being horribly tortured and maimed under the authority of the US government. Do you really think a high power CEO kind of couple who'd invested their lives in The System would believe such a thing without strong strong evidence? Just look at how resistant people are to believing that their favorite candidate stretched the truth a bit!
2. Saying that the Tams ARE the Alliance, to me, is like saying that a citizen of the United States IS the United States Government. I think there is a distinction.
Quote:Here's the thing that's confusing me about your theory - it's a matter of when things went down. If you're suggesting that the Tams folded to pressure not to look into River's situation AFTER she was at the Academy, well, I think that much is clear.
3. It is likely that the parents were motivated by their allegience to the Alliance, and not motivated to be "rid" of River.
On the other hand, if you're saying that they knew exactly what they were sending her into when she first applied, that's the part I just don't see.
Edited to add: It may sound like I'm dissing your theory - I don't mean that! It seems that you're into something more complicated than Gabriel and Regan as evil cackling villains, and that's cool! I'm just not quite understanding your setup. Are you writing a fic of this so it'll be all laid out eventually?
Quote:And here I'll refer to my own fic LOL! I totally set up such a connection, with Book in a state of penance and out to protect Simon and River. But I didn't involve the operative or the elder Tams.
Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River.
Xeyra - yep, I agree. In the River Tam Sessions we also find out River's talent for knowing what girl Simon liked before anyone else did. She totally had some skills before the Alliance enhanced them.
Oh, and BcBear - I wouldn't discount the comics so quickly. Joss writes them, the material is solidly canon. And rumor has it that the next set will tell Book's tale. And he used to be a dirty cop. So we heard from Ron Glass himself on the Browncoat Cruise!
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Mal4Prez,
Unfortunately I am not writing any fic. I am just a fan with an active imagination who often contemplates and extrapolates where the plot lines were headed based on the inertia that they had built up before the shows cancellation.
As far as timeline goes, I imagine that River was already enrolled in the Academy and had been surreptitiously put through several stages of assessment, unbeknownst to the Tams, by Alliance operatives working under cover as faculty.
Upon their assessment of River as a "good candidate", they likely approached the Tams with some kind of packaged proposal, coloring it in such a way as to suggest that the special program is for Alliance benefit and that River will not be harmed while enrolled in it. The Alliance obviously would not reveal the true horrible nature of the program to the Tams so as not to cause alarm to them, and so that they could keep things compartmentalized and maintain plausible deniability.
The Alliance may have incentivised their "offer" to the Tams by guaranteeing certain benefits for them and embellishing it with an offer for accelerated career advancement for an unknowing Simon (this is heavily suggested by Mrs. Tam in episode "Safe"), and with whatever veiled threats you can imagine.
Once they got the okay from the Tams (they were not going to accept 'no' for an answer), then River was transferred to the special learning department.
Make no mistake: I do believe that the Tam's decision to put River into the program was based on some kind of pressure from the Alliance, and that they knew that it was a contoversial decision. But, ultimately because of their patriotism, they committed River and her safety to some unknown program, and in my opinion a good parent will always opt to protect their children and would not succumb to such pressure or intimidation tactics. Especially for political reasons.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
Big response by WYTCHCROFT, so let me go point by point:
1. I don't think Simon was involved because he is always patient and caring, and never jealous of River, and is visibly distressed when he suspects that something is amiss.
I always make a point of mentioning this too - but nobody ever notices.
I KNOW Simon is all about the caring and the selfless.
That does not exclude the possibilities i discussed, whether real, or lurking in the back of Simon's mind. It COULD explain WHY is he so. I'm not saying it DOES explain. But it would be a natural human reaction. Look again at the flashbacks and where they occur in the narrative - and ask yourself what viewpoint are we seeing these from, does it change? etc.
I never seem to articulate this very well.
Simon and River is all about the LOVE (see Serenity the BDM). But that is no simple thing.
I didn't want to mention my Fan scribblings (sigh) but i have tried in the past to explore the issue(s) from many different sides - since most explanations are plauisble enough.
I was going to mention The Recordings so I'm glad Xeyra did. River was already psychic.
Quote:
2. Saying that the Tams ARE the Alliance, to me, is like saying that a citizen of the United States IS the United States Government. I think there is a distinction.
I'm with Platonist on this.
Quote:
3. It is likely that the parents were motivated by their allegience to the Alliance, and not motivated to be "rid" of River. I have seen no evidence that they were in any way displeased with her as a daughter, but rather that they felt the Alliance's motives were worthy of making the sacrifice for the greater good. This is a common theme played out frequently in history.
Well IF Simon was right about the postcards, (and IF we are seeing the truth of what happened) and if River was being as obvious as Simon says, then the very blithe (dismissive) reaction of the Parents is wierd in the extreme. They don't even try to see what Simon means - or reassure him ina realistic way. So... again, there are more POSSIBILITIES here.
Quote:
I will connect the dots later on this thread, and I will also offer my thoughts about how I think Book was a former operative who had quit and became part of the resistance movement. He was trailing the operative in the pilot episode. Actually, he was trailing the operative and Simon at the same time, having foreknowledge that Simon had booked fare on Serenity, and that he was looking for Serenity to arrange a "chance" encounter with Simon and River. All the while maintaining his cover. His interaction with Kaylee was all part of his plan to get on board Serenity to keep the operative from taking River back into Alliance custody.
It is clear that Book was formerly an operative who had a change of heart and got out to follow a more spiritual path, saving other's souls, in repentance for has past while retaining his trade craft.
Book knew that the Tams were involved in River's assignment at the academy, and that was going to become apparent in some later episode.
Then the show got cancelled and book got killed, and yadda yadda yadda.
I completely disagree - though for a long time i thought myself that Book was an ex-op. I think Joss will surprise us. Also, I keep coming back to two things. Joss describes Book as "A man of peace not at peace." and the way he cracks, telling Inara about failing to defend a man he had sworn 'to protect'. I always thought this was just a slip that didn't get corrected (coz, Dobson? huh?) but i'm beginning to think this refers to something in Book's history.
I'm most likely as wrong as the next guesser on this one!! Still fun though:)
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All I will say is that I think there is something fishy going on here and I have a feeling the parents were intimidated by River. In Serenity, (the episode) Simon is very proud when he says that he is very smart but his sister makes him look like an idiot child, and I had a different feeling in the scene where Simon and River were children, (I cannot think of the episode's name) and River starts going crazy about the reavers and the dinosaurs, because I thought her father felt uncomfortable and ill at ease. Perhaps the Tams are very similar to the Dursleys in the Harry Potter stories. I wonder if the institute they sent River to was called St. Mungos.
http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html
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WYTCHCROFT,
Some dot connecting now. And keep in mind that I am not trying to be "right" about anything. For God's sake, it is just a tv show, and a cancelled one at that. I suppose that I am second guessing Joss a bit, but, from the perspective of story telling and plot development, based on the character nuances I perceive, I am seeing these elements pretty clearly.
Okay, back to the dot connecting, and for this entry I am going to keep it limited to the point that you disagree on.
Regarding Book
Go back to the pilot episode: The Evesdown Docks, and the scene where we first notice Book. He is just strolling casually along, with his stuff in tow, purportedly looking for a ride. Doesn't know where he is going, or how he will get there. He is approached by a "barker". The barker pitches Book on taking a ride on the Brutus, and early in the encounter the barker calls Book "grandpa".
Book blows past the barker as if he was yesterday's news, displaying no interest in riding on his ship, and seemingly put off by his grandpa remark.
Later, as we see him stumbling upon Serenity, he seems to be moving extraordinarily slow and looking around with a bit more intent as he passes in front of Kaylee with here trademark parasol, relaxing in her lounge chair. He pauses to look over the front of the ship, as if he wants to be noticed, and catches her gaze for a moment, lingering briefly before he starts to move away. He is assessing, and lingering, almost as if he is hesitating to move away just long enough for her to initiate contact and say, "You're gonna come with us.". This is the only opening that Book needs to arrange passage on Serenity without it looking like he purposely chose that particular ship, i.e., he chose Serenity, but he made it look like Serenity chose him. A common tactic in the intelligence world.
Then, we remember that when Book puts those famous strawberries in Kaylee's face to seal the deal, she says what? Oh yes, "ooh, grandpa." Although we notice that this time he is not put off by her reference to his maturity, as he was by the previous barker.
We could say that Book was being polite and was somewhat charmed by Kaylee, hence his more friendly response, but it is too much of a coincidence that this humble preacher, with so much knowledge of the inner world of Alliance military operational intelligence would end up on the same ship as Simon, River, and Dobson. Thus, what is apparent to me is that Book wanted on that particular ship and he did not want anyone to know.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatBear:
For good reasons, I believe that Simon and River's parents were working with the Alliance, and had agreed to let them abduct her and experiment on her. I believe that there was some consideration given to Mr. and Mrs. Tam in exchange for their complicity.
Certainly plausible. Gabriel Tam is not a real likable character imho. At first he's a bit too nice and then the ugly control freak comes out . And the glimpse we get of Regan Tam is she's more of the dutiful wife, facilitator type.
I just went to twiztv.com to read the script and the version they have has a completely different beginning:
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/firefly/season1/firefly-107.htm
No little Tams or dinosaurs mentioned in the tease. It definitely has more obvious nods and winks to the Tams knowing something's not exactly shiny with their daughter and they're not surprised by it.
Thx for the thread - it got me thinking about the timing of each person's boarding of Serenity - I'd never quite thought about what it meant for Dobson to be boarding before Simon and River (duh) - how did he know what ship they would choose? What's the underground's connection to Mal, and how did Dobson get that info? Mal knows they are picking people up and that surprises the others. Was that look between Simon and Mal a, "so this ponce is the precious cargo I was told about?"
I like the idea of Simon feeling responsible for River being at the Academy, even if just a little. I'm not sure brotherly love alone accounts for his obsession with his sister's welfare. Love AND Guilt would though.
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