Out of Gas: a masterpiece!

POSTED BY: Delvo
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 18:05
VIEWED: 23910
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QUEENTIYE

Monday, October 28, 2002 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
True enough, but that's Mal's character flaw. Kaylee and Inara both did great jobs in my mind of proving Mal was wrong in his assessments of them. Kaylee showed that she was a capable and intelligent young woman who in addition to being a superb mechanic also likes having sex. Sure, he was kind of a jerk, but not every guy I've had sex with treated me like a princess and I certainly don't think I'm a prairie harpy. The important part for me was that both Kaylee and Inara showed that Mal's bad opinion of them was not a true picture of their character and that their attitudes toward sex did not define who they were.

We have a difference of opinion!

I don't think Mal's attitude is a character flaw - or if it is, it isn't as bad as Kaylee's. Ok. But having said that, you are right - Kaylee's true character is NOT defined by her attitude about sex, and that's my point. I'll make it a little further down a little better.

Quote:
I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say about this one? Did you feel that the show was making some kind of statement about Mal and Kaylee's morals? Because my first reaction upon realizing Kaylee was doing it with the mechanic was "Good for you, girl!" Serenity makes Kaylee hot, but Mal is so obsessed with the ship that he'd rather die than abandon it. Personally, I think Kaylee's attitude is the healthier one.

No, I'm not saying that the show was making a statement about thier morals. What I'm saying is that our look into Kaylee's character was unfairly tainted with something that was mostly extraneous to it. Her primary character is her love of engines. We didn't need a sex scene to show us that. Any more than we would have needed a sex scene to show us Mal's love of Serenity. It was unnecessary. AND - even if we look at your viewpoint as the more enlightened one than mine

... I think we can agree that your attitude is not universally accepted - and so we've introduced an element into Kaylee's character that COULD very easily call her into question. It wasn't necessary, and it wasn't fair to her. We could have handled her sexual outlook separately - her love of engines is just as obsessive and defining as Mal's love of Serenity and was sufficient to stand on its own. The sexism I'm describing is the idea that sex was needed to show HER love of a typically male thing, where no such thing was needed to justify Mal's first love.

Quote:
I have nothing to add. This is just a great analysis of the Companion trade.

THANKS!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

THEGN

Monday, October 28, 2002 11:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Well, she kind of did. Kaylee said her father said she was a natural. Her father who apparently is a mechanic since Kaylee said she worked for him when there was work to be had.

I suppose she did say that, but I don't think it's apparent that her father is a mechanic. I think that is an assumption. However, perhaps it is an assumption I should have made.

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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

QUEENTIYE

Monday, October 28, 2002 11:21 PM

O.k. brief complaint - what's with these weird icons!

That wink looks like a deranged lunatic, and the tongue sticking out looks like someone blowing bubble gum... I think for those two I'll stick with text icons!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

PEDME84

Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:44 AM

"Now contrast this with what we felt about Kaylee. Who apparently is so turned on by engines that she screws guys in engine rooms. Anyone feel any empathy with her? Anyone feel like - wow. She really loves that engine. Or did anyone think "She's awfully kooky..." That's how I felt. I'm asking everyone to consider their own feelings, and it may turn out that I'm all alone on this one. But this is what I saw - and I didn't like it."

This scene made me love Kaylee that much more! As someone who is typically seen as the sweet and innocent one, i gotta say that that is NEVER the whole story. it used to piss me off when people would just label me as a goody goody or whatever, cause i would think why do i have to be one or the other? i'm both the lighter and the darker sides at the same time. anyway, now i'm just used to it, but to see a character like Kaylee on TV makes me so so happy. she is cute, and she is naive, but at the same exact time she really really is neither. just because of being me, i find her soooo refreshing.

whether the scene with the arrogant mechanic was too raunchy or not is just a matter of opinion. she got horny, she found a pretty boy, end of story.

and i'm also starting to understand why her wardrobe seemingly has conflicts in it. she really is bright and colorful, she just wears her work clothes most of the time, which isn't to say that she doesn't like those just as much. he he, she's so cool.

and here's my take on mal calling inara a whore all the time. guys like to mess with girls. at least i know they love to do it with me. the only explanation i've gotten so far is that i come off as pretty unmessable, so it's like a challenge to piss me off. we already know that mal knows just how to manipulate her. in the last scene of omr he immediately disarms her with a compliment. (it ticks me off when guys do this kind of thing, so i want to smack him whenever i watch this). inara has a very dignified persona. calling her a whore would be a way to challenge that.

and someone on this thread hailed joss as the greatest writer in tv or something to that effect. i'm not disagreeing (goodness, never!), but i do have a two cents to put in.

he is the greatest because he's the only one with the OPPORTUNITY and the CREATIVE CONTROL. his writing career is a frickin fantasy.

if movies could be written by one person, and directed by people who don't feel the need to change so much so that it is all theirs and not the writers anymore, both scenarios resulting in inconsistencies within the script, and also if more writers had the opportunity to be taken seriously, there would be countless other joss whedons for us to obsess about. or not even with the idealistic scenarios i just listed, just anything that's better. he is hardly the only one out there with his level of talent. as a writer and an audience member i feel so jipped.

here endeth the rant, not that it makes much of a difference to complain about it. i guess that's why it's only worth two cents.

ciao

- emily

LOONYTOON

Tuesday, October 29, 2002 2:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
sex + money = WHORE! I don`t see why someone would object to Mal calling her a whore. She might only lay nice guy, but everything the good cap`n has said about her has been true. She may be a high class whore, or the whore with a heart of gold, but she is still a whore. Maybe she likes mal cuz he is the only one that treats her like a normal person cuz he see`s no special reason to respect her. And the nice whore is not a new idea, watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood.

How is anything I just said here rude? Jaynesgirlfriend, the only time I have been rude to you was on the thread dealing with homosexuality. I will not rescind my views on that subject, however I was innapropiate in my tone. I appologize for that, and I will not hold that thread against you, but if you want to keep bringing it up, that is fine by me.

And be careful what you wish for, I`m currently dating my last arch-nemesis!

ROBERTSPARLING

Tuesday, October 29, 2002 3:50 AM

Quote:
I really hate it when someone uses the word "contrived" in reference to television... You can't avoid being contrived in television, becuase everything is borrowed or copied from something else.

That's not what I meant by "contrived". I meant "too unlikely and coincidental; forced; out of place; not believable as a part of the story; a conspicuous intrusion into or imposition upon the story by something else, signalled by its jarring failure to fit and make sense".

"contrived" (from Websters dictionary) means obviously planned or forced. All those extemporaneous defintions you have up there don't really apply. But again, not really the point.

The whole point of fiction, in any medium, is the suspense of disbelief. We write stories about men who can fly, women who can kill vampires, and aliens from other planets becuase we have the ability to suspend the rational thoughts imposed on us by reality. The point of fiction is that anything can happen, and science fiction, fantasy, and horror are the genre's that best demonstrate the suspension of disbelief.

The show is about space cowboys. Read it again: Space Cowboys. Certain allowances have to be made and the coincidence that a better mechanic for Serenity happened to be boffing the current one isn't much of a leap of faith on the part of a viewer. In TV land, coincidences happen.

But what exactly isn't believable about Kaylee showing up and upstage Serenity's former mechanic post-coitus? Because she's a girl or a townie? As I understand it, that town she was from seemed to have a thriving salvage yard and space docks. She could probably have picked up a hefty amount of engineering skills from various shops and garages. And if engines (and apparently the mechanics that work on them) do get her "hot," as the grungy former mechanic mentioned, then she probably has spent a lot of time on, around, under, or very near to engines, in one state of undress or another. There doesn't seem to be a reason that Kaylee wouldn't know plenty about engines, especially engines on rusty junkers, like Serenity used to be.

What scenario would you have chosen that would have better fit Kaylee joining the crew? What wouldn't seem contrived to you? Please post it if you have one.

SENSOU

Tuesday, October 29, 2002 5:48 AM

First off, I loved this episode. Flashbacks and character developments are always nifty.
Part of the reason I loved this episode was the whole "save the ship in an improbable manner" theme. Mal really reminded me of Capt. Kirk, except I don't recall Kirk ever slamming someone against a wall. Any good guys, at least. The way he acted afte he was shot, I half-expected Mcoy or Spock to show up. However, he didn't lay it on nearly as thick as Kirk usually was.
Jayne was just hilarious. "It smelled funny." He kept the episode from being too dark. River also kept it light with her "reassurring" Book.
Simon and Inara, on the other hand, were just depressing in the first flashback. Of course, "risking life and limb" wasn't exactly what they signed on for. Inara in the flashback was...amusing. Very character-informative. She missed her calling, she should have been a laywer.
Kaylee also was rather wimpy abot the whole thing, but not everyone can be good in a crisis. The whole sex thing? It happened. Deal with it. Lock her up in a room with Simon, condoms, and alcohol for a day. Solve many problms.
"Why don't I jump up and down and wave my arms while I'm at it?" Wash was very...something about the whole thing. On the one hand, his wife was dying, almost dying, whatever. Perfectly understandable that he wanted to stay wit her. On the other hand, he had a responsibility as the pilot to help with the situation, eh, don't get me on my soapbox. What died on his face in the one flashback?
One question about Zoe: why does she get all the good lines? Loved the death-trap one.

Sensou
Hope is the denial of reality, the carrot dangled in front of the carthorse to keep him plodding along in a vain attepmt to reach it.~Raistlin Majere

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:
sex + money = WHORE! I don`t see why someone would object to Mal calling her a whore. She might only lay nice guy, but everything the good cap`n has said about her has been true. She may be a high class whore, or the whore with a heart of gold, but she is still a whore. Maybe she likes mal cuz he is the only one that treats her like a normal person cuz he see`s no special reason to respect her. And the nice whore is not a new idea, watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood.

How is anything I just said here rude? Jaynesgirlfriend, the only time I have been rude to you was on the thread dealing with homosexuality. I will not rescind my views on that subject, however I was innapropiate in my tone. I appologize for that, and I will not hold that thread against you, but if you want to keep bringing it up, that is fine by me.

And be careful what you wish for, I`m currently dating my last arch-nemesis!

You have a point. You might not have been deliberately rude here, but its hard not to be a little offended by that many uses of the word "whore" in one paragraph. And I admit I was a bit tainted by our previous experience. But I think your wrong on that being the reason Inara likes Mal. Companions may be considered respectable by the majority, but I doubt Mal is alone in his opinion and Inara didn't act as though she'd never been called a whore before.

Thank you for the apology too. I respect your right to your opinion. Its a very volatile issue though and I think we all got a little out of hand.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND

Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:

We have a difference of opinion!

I don't think Mal's attitude is a character flaw -

Hmm, now that I think about it character flaw wasn't a fair term to use. A difference in values from mine is not a flaw, just a... difference. Its late, I'm running out of words, but do you understand what I mean?

Quote:

No, I'm not saying that the show was making a statement about thier morals. What I'm saying is that our look into Kaylee's character was unfairly tainted with something that was mostly extraneous to it. Her primary character is her love of engines. We didn't need a sex scene to show us that. Any more than we would have needed a sex scene to show us Mal's love of Serenity. It was unnecessary. *snip* We could have handled her sexual outlook separately - her love of engines is just as obsessive and defining as Mal's love of Serenity and was sufficient to stand on its own. The sexism I'm describing is the idea that sex was needed to show HER love of a typically male thing, where no such thing was needed to justify Mal's first love.

QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

Okay, I see what you mean, and I see where its coming from too. I don't think this was the interpretation we were supposed to get though. Even while having sex Kaylee was more interested in the ship than the guy. I could still be okay with this, that Kaylee would rather fix an engine than have sex. This is something that's stereotypically a guy thing too. If the roles were reversed and Bester had been in Kaylee's shoes would you have a problem with it?

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

QUILL

Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo: (I think, these quote nests are getting scary)
and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place.

I thought Fox was showing the eps out of order. We're probably missing a few developmental scenes somewhere.

Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

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