Changing views on episodes...
POSTED BY: wytchcroft
UPDATED: Sunday, August 17, 2008 16:30
VIEWED: 8571
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Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
Excellent thread indeed. Feelings that have changed... Hm...
Well, I was unfortunate enough to see the BDM before the series, so that kind of turned my perceptions upside down, but factoring that out as much as possible...
no don't! the 'BDM first' perspective is really interesting - MerryK asked about that once (and it may have been on The Signal podcast too).
in a way i think you are getting the full joss first - since if you watched the show on tv the pilot was shown last. Comin from the BDM into the series probably puts you (as a viewer) closer to where Whedon wanted you to be.
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Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBZ:Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
And, I agree with your comments on the series and it having darker undertones that are not obvious with initial viewings, Joss hid his real intent well.
I'm seeing this, too. This show had so many layers both character wise but also how the 'verse operated. Now when I rewatch, I pay careful attention to the details that define the 'verse. Joss and company really did do an excellent job at laying the groundwork for an interesting and different world.
it really holds up doesn't it?:) I've been enjoying Enterprise (in a moderate but pleasently surprised way) but despite all the cerebral continuity experts - it fails to convince me it's a working universe. Maybe it's the aliens - or the non-zoic less special effects or hell, maybe it's just me. But everything from the remotest western style outpost to the scrap yard of Ariel to the Connex video phones. I buy the verse hook line and sinker. And no show had a more believeable ship in space. Not even BSG which is the only other show that DOES convince me.
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Serenity: I love how the crew tricked the Commander with the distress call. Doesn't say much for our "heroes" does it?
...I also think that we do put too much emphasis on the hero qualities of Mal, Zoe and Jayne. They are not heroes in the strictest sense. They're crooks - if all was right they would be in jail! Mal is not a good man.
Jayne is not a loveable teddy bear - he's a seasoned killer.
Zoe, as revealed in Better Days, was pretty much a terrorist. But it is these things that makes the show interesting. If the show was about them living like Robin Hoods I wouldn't be the fan that I am.
ABSOLUTELY! great to hear someone say it:) And i admire the Darkhorse comics for continuing the moral grey when (after the BDM) they could probably have turned the crew into (star wars style) folk heroes. Instead they went back a step and stayed faithful to exploring the blurry ethics at the heart of the show and its crew.
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Someone above mentioned that Joss Whedon changed the characters in BDM, but that is not true. In BDM the characters were the same but Joss had to make them react to each other as if the series never happened so the movie would make sense to people who were not privy to seeing the series.
http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html
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The main difference to me is that I watch Wash's scenes in the series more intently- knowing where he's headed and all.
And the end of Serenity make me squeeze out an extra tear with every viewing.
...Yeah, slightly darker overall than at first few viewings...
*Great thread*
Before she keelsisall
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I sort of saw the ending of Book as a regular character and could see how they could kill him off and still have him come back to play roles from the past because his character had a lot of unanswered questions which caused a lot of mystery, but was floored with the loss of Wash because there was not a lot of background information for us to wonder about. I think all we knew about Wash was that he came from a really polluted planet where the stars could not be seen and that once he was on a planet where the only form of entertainment was juggling goslings.
http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
Excellent thread indeed. Feelings that have changed... Hm...
Well, I was unfortunate enough to see the BDM before the series, so that kind of turned my perceptions upside down, but factoring that out as much as possible...
no don't! the 'BDM first' perspective is really interesting - MerryK asked about that once (and it may have been on The Signal podcast too).
in a way i think you are getting the full joss first - since if you watched the show on tv the pilot was shown last. Comin from the BDM into the series probably puts you (as a viewer) closer to where Whedon wanted you to be.
I guess I should have been more clear...
I was painfully ignorant of the shows existence until it was already long cancelled. For me, the decision was between buying the series on DVD or waiting to get the BDM on DVD to judge the venture's quality. So, in my case, even if I'd seen the show first I still would have seen the episodes in the correct order. So, I limited my risk of coin up front, and it would have saved me $20 if I'd wound up not liking it, but since I did like it (understatement) and bought the series anyway, in the long run I saved nothing and cost myself the joy and glory of other revelations, such as the development of relationships and the discovery of River's true potential. (I am one of those people who HATES knowing the ending of things before I see/read the rest of the story. I have a blabbermouth, opening-night-movie-going friend that I have to avoid for a couple weeks every time a good movie is coming out.)
O.K., and also speaking of the believability of the 'Verse and Serenity herself (WAY off topic, apologies):
I am a hard-core pen-and-paper gamer, and grew up on the old-school West End Star Wars D6 RPG system. (And a cyber-high-five for anybody reading this who knows what THAT means.) After the new trilogy made Star Wars lame (and I'm not a hater, I went into all those movies WANTING to love them, and was crushed by Ep. 2 and 3), I decided that there might still be something there I could salvage in my own creativity. Influenced by Joss, I thought to myself, even in the Star Wars universe of heroes and the Force, there have to be these regular people. Where are all the Han Solos who DIDN'T join up with the rebellion, or the "hedge" Force-users who just tried to hide their powers and survive instead of taking up the galactic struggle? So I grabbed a couple friends and made a SW RPG campaign that was very Firefly-esque in scope, basically SW technology and worlds with FF motivations, morals, and lack of epic-ness. So, the characters are based on this ship, and I want it to be logical, so I actually think it through. (The Millenium Falcon LOOKS cool, but WHERE did they put the cargo? The loading ramp goes straight into hallways that would be hard to move goods through, and we never see anything like a cargo bay.) So, I think, you can't put cargo in the back because the engines are on the back, cargo bay has to be on the front. O.K. Now, I have to have the cargo bay at ground level, and it should be big enough to be realistic. If I put stuff in front of that cargo bay, then it would be harder to load, so I'll just put everything on top, and naturally the command deck has to go in the front of all that and... Oh, crap. I just drew Serenity.
So I tabled that, decided to work on the plot of the first adventure. Figuring they could get a cargo, and some people try to take it from them, and maybe they have a brush with the Empire, which is bad, since it is illegal cargo of some kind and one of the characters is a Force user on the run, and then when they finally DO get to the destination planet, the buyer decides to ambush them and take the... Oh, crap. I just WROTE Serenity.
So, yeah, from my standpoint it is highly believable. Believable enough that it got into my head so deeply that when I try to think of anything in a sci-fi setting in any natural, logical way (particu
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OK…getting back to the darkness...
A few threads ago a poster wrote that he or she thought that Inara may fear Mal's violent nature (as witnessed), and that eventually she would have become a victim of domestic violence, with him being the culprit. And, that may have been the real reason that she left for the Training House. She found her self in love with an abuser.
Anyway, I never thought about it much until I started looking for it, ya know, the way he gets in her face in the BDM (it’s aggressive), and the way he points and pulls his gun on Haven. And all the whore comments. Oh, and remember Spike and Buffy in the bathroom?
We’ve all heard about the returning soldiers that victimized their wives. So, totally possible?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
OK…getting back to the darkness...
A few threads ago a poster wrote that he or she thought that Inara may fear Mal's violent nature (as witnessed), and that eventually she would have become a victim of domestic violence, with him being the culprit. And, that may have been the real reason that she left for the Training House. She found her self in love with an abuser.
Anyway, I never thought about it much until I started looking for it, ya know, the way he gets in her face in the BDM (it’s aggressive), and the way he points and pulls his gun on Haven. And all the whore comments. Oh, and remember Spike and Buffy in the bathroom?
We’ve all heard about the returning soldiers that victimized their wives. So, totally possible?
Interesting speculation. Possible? Sure. "Totally" possible? I wouldn't go that far. Personally, I wouldn't put my money on it. I think Mal's 'whore' comments are a defense mechanism because he can't admit his feelings for her, even to himself. While it is also true he doesn't think much of her choices in life, he does respect HER, as shown by their dialogue in Shindig. Also, Zoe has been Mal's closest friend and confidant since the war, so it's hard to see a disrespect for women in his psyche. He speaks with reverence toward his mother as well, the one time he speaks of her, and in that same episode his visceral reaction to Saffron's portrayal of the (supposed, who knows with her) treatment of women on Triomph also points to a deep disdain for abusive men. (O.K., O.K., so I know he knocks her unconscious later, but I think that was less about sadism and more about making sure he didn't get knifed in the back on his way out the door. That and...she REALLY had it coming.)
It's also worth pointing out that abusive men are usually covering up for deep insecurities and fears about their own masculinity, and I don't see any of that in Mal's personality; the very fact that Zoe is one of the only people on the ship he truly listens to tends to (and Inara to, for that matter, though he is usually crankier about it in her case) shows he is secure enough to take advice from a woman. Often times (though not always, granted) impotence is even wrapped up in the abusers issues, and Nandi didn't seem to have any complaints on that front, either.
Mal's aggressive moves toward Inara are similar to though even less direct in nature than those toward Simon or Wash when they are disobeying orders. I think he is asserting his authority as captain, nothing more sinister than that.
I guess I just don't see any of our BDH as THAT dark; I mean, to me, that would be just about as dispicable as it gets, not just un-heroic but truly worthlessly evil, and I can't see Mal in that dark of a light...so to speak. Just my personal opinion of the character, with hopefully at least some logical justification. Food for thought.
Crud, I forgot... Why I don't see Mal as continuing the trend, it is still plausible and interesting to think of Inara fleeing an abusive relationship on Sihnon. Given the fabric of the 'Verse, I think it is one of the most credible theories I have heard (as opposed to the anti-aging drugs and so forth), and it does cast the scene in OiS when she keeps Mal from looking at her bruised lip in a much more deeply-layered light...as well as her brief attempt to psycho-analyze Early, seeming to 'know' him somehow, who we know is a sadist from River's revelations. Very thought-provoking...
"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book
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OK here it is,
I watched the BDM first, I never even knew about FF when it was on (difficult time in my life for various reasons). I enjoyed the film alot, and I REALLY enjoy FF. I guess my favorite episode is OoG. I like the way it was written (showing everything in reverse order is my favorite story telling trick).
Yes our BDH are not so heroic, they're trying to eek out an existence in the 'verse that is harsh, and sometimes cold as The Black. That tends to make one cold, tends to blur the lines of "Right and Wrong". The one thing that they do have, IMO is freedom, even if it is limited to "Keeping under the Alliance radar..."
Anywho its just my 2 cents, YMMV
Browncoat for LIFE!
If you can't walk, crawl. If you can't crawl, find someone to carry you.
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Quote:Nope.
Originally posted by Platonist:
And, that may have been the real reason that she left for the Training House. She found her self in love with an abuser.
Mal would sooner suck down a bullet than touch Inara in any wrong fashion.
Final wordisall
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