Changing views on episodes...

POSTED BY: wytchcroft
UPDATED: Sunday, August 17, 2008 16:30
VIEWED: 8571
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WYTCHCROFT

Monday, August 4, 2008 12:24 PM

A little while ago or so there was once upon a time a golden thread on a far flung posting board that asked: Which episodes have grown on you over time?

I gave some kind’ve answer can’t remember what – Shindig or Safe maybe… But allied to that – I’ve been wondering, have peoples views on the series changed over time? Or their opinion on a specific incident within the show?

For example; The shows seems a lot darker to me now than on first viewing – maybe because of the BDM or maybe because (oddly enough) flicking between BSG and Firefly has shown what they have in common as much as the superficial differences (gag count for one! Not that BSG is never funny, far from it).

Maybe knowing the humorous elements so well means they fade slightly, Warstories seems more vicious – the end of OMR is more uncomfortable to view (as I almost suspect it was meant to be – compare the zoe/yosaffbridge moment in Trash, much more of the funny… but then again – was that put in because of how hard the end of OMR might, er, hit some folk? See – it’s ok, women upside Yosaff too!)

I wonder because over time the climax (epilogue almost) to OMR makes me more uneasy NOW than it did for the first 50 000,000 viewings.

My view of Jayne was changed by the BDM to me (IMHO) he became a lot more sympathetic sort of retrospectively. I guess first time around I just had him down as a gun happy merc’ willing and naïve enough to sell out the crew. Not that he aint - but there’s more and I began to appreciate the truth of that after the BDM, though I’m not entirely certain why that should be.

Wash’s death – I just accepted it for a long time – still do in fact but – gradually I’ve realised (especially after reading Serenity Found) that it may indeed have been a wrong call. Ok, ok – I know some folk will say ‘we knew that all along’ and ‘he aint dead really!’ but – I went through Buffy and watched the Tara thing play out – I loved Tara and yet I still get hate mail for saying ‘she’s dead – deal with it, the scoobies have to!’ and I don’t see a bad judgement there.
So with Wash – but now, although I can accept it, (in my fic scribbling he’s pretty much stayed under the sod) it fits less well, it’s a dent in the chrome chassis of the BDM.

Anyone else had their views change on the show (or movie etc) change over time?

MONTYSSOUPCATCHER

Monday, August 4, 2008 4:00 PM

The only view thats changed over time is that i love this show more and more i cant seem to get enough of it i can just watch the entire box set then go back and watch it again. One thing i have started thinking is that jayne may have a little bit of a thing for kaylee, he doesnt show much in the way of affection apart from serenity where kaylee gets shot. He is really angry and book steps in then jayne is camped outside the surgery out of view of the rest of the crew. When others get injured or badly hurt he doesnt show the same level of emotion but with kaylee he does.

RALLEM

Monday, August 4, 2008 4:23 PM

My favorite episodes have always been and I dare say will always be; "Out of Gas," "Our Mrs. Reynolds," and "Trash." For "Our Mrs. Reynolds," and "Trash," the reason is obvious that I love those shows because of Christina Hendricks and how she spiced up the dynamics of an already amazing show, and I just thought "Out of Gas" was the perfect show and thought it delivered on all aspects of a story.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, August 4, 2008 4:33 PM

I'd have to say that for me The Series gets better with subsequent viewings, but the BDM does not. If anything, the BDM makes me wonder why Josh changed the character personalities so much.

PLATONIST

Monday, August 4, 2008 6:17 PM

good thread

I love the BDM... I watch it more than the series. It's clearly Joss's work without interference from the Fox boys. Mal's and River’s Sci-Fi stories are presented in a compelling action packed fashion, the characters are real...I love angry Simon and confrontational Kaylee and pissed off at the world Mal. I love all the tension within the crew and their subsequent bonding and arcs.

The ending vignette with Mal and his ladies are my favorite scenes in the franchise. Zoe's unwavering loyalty in the face of incredible personal loss, Inara choosing family and love over work, and River earning her co-piloting wings are beautifully written and handled with sincerity. It makes me want more, more and more. It does its job; I want to know what comes next?

Out of Gas is my favorite episode, hands down, again it deals with the original nine characters and their choices, living on the Raggedy Edge.
It gets better everytime I watch it.

WYTCHCROFT

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
good thread

I love the BDM... I watch it more than the series.

while i couldn't say that i watch it more than the tv show - i certainly watch it just as much. And i noticed long ago that as a fic scribbler i am drawn more towards the BDM period/characters and arcs (well, plus saffron). I like Mr Universe as a character very much. Apart from that addition i pretty much agree with you!

Quote:

Out of Gas is my favorite episode, hands down, again it deals with the original nine characters and their choices, living on the Raggedy Edge.
It gets better everytime I watch it.

i have never settled the Out of Gas/Objects in Space dance off - i can't fault either episode:)

PLATONIST

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 4:56 PM

Me too, OiS is always a close runner up to OoG,
And OiS is the one episode that gets better and better with each viewing.

And, I agree with your comments on the series and it having darker undertones that are not obvious with initial viewings, Joss hid his real intent well.

And I know all you fellows love Saffron, but here in SoCal, big tits and pretty faces are a dime a dozen, or 2,500 dollars if you clip the coupon. And, it’s real easy to lie to unsuspecting men and fulfill their misogynist fantasies, when you look like that. There is a certain power in playing people and leading them on, and that’s why you don’t do it, it’s dishonest. I just never find her to be that interesting or layered. She’s a big busty con artist written for male Fox viewers. I can’t imagine her in a reoccurring roll; her behavior is way too predictable. A poor man's Inara or something along those lines.

I do love the scenes where Mal and Zoe deck her, though, it's like, enough already, bitch, shut up.

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 5:21 PM

Excellent thread indeed. Feelings that have changed... Hm...

Well, I was unfortunate enough to see the BDM before the series, so that kind of turned my perceptions upside down, but factoring that out as much as possible...

Definitely agree with seeing Jayne in a new light. There are some connections or consequences with him that get overlooked. In the Pilot, when he says, "Does that mean turning on the Captain?" it sounds like it wouldn't bother him too much, but later, in Ariel, "It isn't like I sold YOU out to the Feds," tells us he does make a distinction there, that turning on Mal is worse to him, somehow, a line he'd prefer not to cross. This casts his line in the Pilot in a whole new light. At that moment, I also looked back to Out of Gas and Jayne's comment of "We would have got back first, but..." Jayne will butt heads with Mal, but seems to want Mal to LIKE him. Then, we find out that much of Jayne's paycheck goes back to support his family (they never say how much, but in my imagination I assume it is his biggest budget item after clearing his expenses), and we almost begin to see Jayne as a person who isn't DISloyal, but who rather has his primary loyalty to an off-camera family who we never see. Finding this out made his need for credits in Ariel seem less like greed and more like something deeper, and his life-saving shame over it later ("Don't tell 'em what I did.") makes me wonder if he WISHES he could be more loyal to his shipmates, but has obligations he is willing to sell his principles for.

My view of the BDM has changed with time, as well, but in more subtle ways. I never watch it on its own now, it is always series-movie. Since I watched the movie first, it had always seemed kind of too seperate to me. I'm trying to cement them together in my mind, and it is working slowly.

I will say I don't disagree with killing Wash. (Granted, had the movie led to a sudden series revival, I'd have wanted Wash to be in it and looked the other way if Joss came up with a lame plot excuse to un-kill him, but if wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak.) I think Joss knew what he was doing; knew this was his opportunity to tell a grand finale, rather than a pie-in-the-sky chance to re-launch the show. (Though he may have had some hopes in that regard, I don't think he was betting on them.) In that kind of Finale, somebody has to get whacked; it's just the rules. It also made me believe that all bets were off; there was a huge tension for me in that last scene because I wouldn't have been shocked if ALL the BDH had died in that final sequence, and I DEFINITELY thought River was toast when the Reavers dragged her from the door. I think if Wash had still been alive at that point, I would have been waiting for the miracle instead of assuming it wasn't coming... (Remind anybody of Mal's world-view...? CREEPY! Joss really IS boss!)

I also didn't think the personalities were TOO much different. I thought it was a good reflection of how tensions on the ship would build and start to boil over after Book and Inara leave, since they are Mal's conscience and heart, respectively. With them gone, Mal becomes cold and hard again (or colder and harder), and that spills out to the rest of the crew, who were all basically the same except generally much crankier.

Also, the last time I watched it was the first time I realized that the scar on Mal's chest in the shirtless-with-Inara-on-the-vid scene would be from the wierd knife that Crow stuck him with in TJ. I'm sure everyone else figured it out a lot quicker...

Anyway, there are a lot of episodes that have changed for me in some way, or that I've gained new insight on the more I watch them... Maybe later... I've already taken too many pixels with this post as it is.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

CHARLIEBZ

Tuesday, August 5, 2008 6:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:

And, I agree with your comments on the series and it having darker undertones that are not obvious with initial viewings, Joss hid his real intent well.

I'm seeing this, too. This show had so many layers both character wise but also how the 'verse operated. Now when I rewatch, I pay careful attention to the details that define the 'verse. Joss and company really did do an excellent job at laying the groundwork for an interesting and different world.

Serenity: I love how the crew tricked the Commander with the distress call. He seemed like a genuinely nice man - he was concerned and wanted to help others. Mal and others used the knowledge that the Alliance does want to help people which leads me to believe that Mal understands that it isn't necessarily an "evil" entity. Doesn't say much for our "heroes" does it?

Bushwacked: The Commander's comment that he hadn't seen brutality like that [Reaver stuff] since the war. I like this comment because we tend to think of the war as a noble thing but war can bring out the worst in people.

Shindig: The old guy's remark about "dozen slaves," the other captain talking about transporting slaves, the supposed acceptance of killing people in duels. Wing killed a dozen and he's still treated well by society. Badger engaged in the trafficking of slaves. And Persephone was one of the first to "secede" which really shows that maybe the Independants weren't all nice people. I do wonder why the Alliance seems to condone slavery or at least why they turn a blind eye to it.

I also think that we do put too much emphasis on the hero qualities of Mal, Zoe and Jayne. They are not heroes in the strictest sense. They're crooks - if all was right they would be in jail! Mal is not a good man. He's hollowed out for sure but you can't tell me other Browncoats had nothing left after the war and they don't become criminals. I'm specifically thinking of how easy Mal kills. Even when it is "justified." The Fed in Serenity (I know, technically not killed but Mal didn't aim to injure), that broken kid in Bushwacked (was death really the only option for him?), the surrendering Alliance officer in Serenity.

Jayne is not a loveable teddy bear - he's a seasoned killer. Remember when he lists all the reasons he would kill a man?

Zoe, as revealed in Better Days, was pretty much a terrorist. But it is these things that makes the show interesting. If the show was about them living like Robin Hoods I wouldn't be the fan that I am.

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Wednesday, August 6, 2008 6:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBZ:

Shindig: The old guy's remark about "dozen slaves," the other captain talking about transporting slaves, the supposed acceptance of killing people in duels. Wing killed a dozen and he's still treated well by society. Badger engaged in the trafficking of slaves. And Persephone was one of the first to "secede" which really shows that maybe the Independants weren't all nice people. I do wonder why the Alliance seems to condone slavery or at least why they turn a blind eye to it.

I also think that we do put too much emphasis on the hero qualities of Mal, Zoe and Jayne. They are not heroes in the strictest sense. They're crooks - if all was right they would be in jail! Mal is not a good man. He's hollowed out for sure but you can't tell me other Browncoats had nothing left after the war and they don't become criminals. I'm specifically thinking of how easy Mal kills. Even when it is "justified." The Fed in Serenity (I know, technically not killed but Mal didn't aim to injure), that broken kid in Bushwacked (was death really the only option for him?), the surrendering Alliance officer in Serenity.

Zoe, as revealed in Better Days, was pretty much a terrorist. But it is these things that makes the show interesting. If the show was about them living like Robin Hoods I wouldn't be the fan that I am.

I'd like to know more about the "slavery" in the 'Verse. I've always had the impression that it might not be slavery in the strictest legal sense, but rather an indentured servitude, which has been common here on Earth-That-Is during periods of rapid colonization. The people in the 'Verse in everyday speak are correct to refer to these people as "slaves," since that is the practical truth of what they are, but it might explain why the Alliance is able to turn a blind eye to it, since it is "technically" a willingly-entered contract by the servant. This is all just speculation on my part, though. The "slave-ship" described in the beginning of Shindig doesn't fit with our current notions of indentured servitude, which were generally contracted one individual or small family at a time, but the situation in the 'Verse might run a little differently. Again, just guessing.

I haven't read any of the comics and such, so I can't speak to people's backgrounds, but just from what I see in the show, I do agree that the characters are not all that heroic, but their ruthlessness can be overstated. There are plenty of times Mal could have killed and didn't, as well. Saffron comes to mind; I even get the impression from Mal and Inara's dialogue at the end of WS that they possibly COULD have found and killed Niska, but even after everything he did to them, they didn't. (This is just a gut-feel from the way those two lines are written; I know we are given a brief glimpse of Niska fleeing the room that some could fairly interpret as him making a clean get-away, but I'm not 100% convinced of that point, just a feeling I get.) In particular, Mal doesn't kill Patience, and I really believe that him letting her live is in a direct contrast to her earlier statement. She says "I never part with money I don't have to," and Mal is effectively saying with his speech to her that "The difference between us is that I never kill anyone I don't have to." (Especially powerful since Patience was going to kill Mal and Zoe even after she got the money back.)

All that said, I'm not disagreeing. The BDH aren't heroic in the strictest sense, and certainly not Robin Hood types, TJ and Ariel/Beginning of WS notwithstanding, and none of them hesitate to kill when they have to or grieve much (or at all) over it when they do. There is definitely a darkness to the show and a hardness to the characters that isn't necessarily as obvious the first times through. I did want to offer a counter-point, though, particularly for this reason:

In the OoG flashback when Mal is buying Serenity and showing her to Zoe, to me he does not look or sound like a man who plans on spending the rest of his life in

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