Out of Gas: a masterpiece!
POSTED BY: Delvo
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 18:05
VIEWED: 23910
PAGE 3 of 8
It seems that some clarification is due here about my comments on love/sex/dating/romance (LSDR) in this show.
First of all, the scene I'm talking about with Inara isn't the negotiation scene. It's after Mal has given everyone the plan and they're preparing to leave him, when she interrupts what she's doing to stare at him, how many times, three? And then the "You don't have to die alone!" speech where she's practically having a nervous breakdown at the concept of not being with him again. Nobody else had much hesitation about accepting his wishes and decisions. It's what he wants; her self-interest in this is just woefully overdone.
Second, I'm not complaining about the casualness with which sex is presented, which I know in many people's minds equals "maturity" about it. I DO, in fact, find that attitude immature because it's generally a trait of children to pretend that certain actions have no consequences at all. But I understand that many people in real life and on TV see it very differently, and I didn't bring that up because I know that last sentence makes me look exactly like Loonytoon's fire&brimstone preacher to some of you and I don't care to bother getting into that fight here. I called the presentation of LSDR here immature because the characters' behavior about it is like the behavior of middle school girls about LSDR in several ways.
First, they're about as subtle with it as a sledgehammer to the head. Seond, there's the dreamy, slightly drugged-looking goo-goo eyes every time Kaylee and Inara see or talk about their target men. Third, there's HOW OFTEN they manage to end up talking about their target men behind their backs. Fourth, there's the rush to the end of the story with no development; we didn't see Inara's crush building or any particular reason for, we just see that it overwhelms her life, and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place. Fifth, there's the infusion of sex where it doesn't make sense. Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived. And when something's obviously shoehorned in there when it wasn't necessary to the story, we have to ask what the real reason is... Oh, I know teacher! It's so that JW can preach at us his particular philosophy of promiscuity! After all, his message isn't one we're bombarded with all the time already, it's truly original! I don't have a problem with sex in general, but I see no reason to forcibly infuse it into everything else in life either. That's one way it can become unhealthy and problematic, and, perhaps more importantly to a TV show (as opposed to real life), it's just lazy shortcut storytelling. Sixth... oh, nevermind, five's all I had... 
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Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
I don't think Mal called Kaylee a "prairie harpy" because Bester told him that engines make her hot.
I don't either. I think he called her that because that's what he thinks of a female who has to get it on with his engineer in his engine room, especially an engineer who apparently doesn't care enough about her to ensure that's shes appropriately clothed before he gets up to strut around half naked talking about her behind her back.
And while I don't share the opinion that promiscuity is "o.k." I also am not basing my opinions of the sexist portrayal here on that. What I'm saying is that this episode showed the defining characteristics of just about every character of the show. Someone else commented that this felt like the pilot. I concur. So saying - we learned that Mal's first love is his ship. I loved that scene. While I'm sure I'll never love a hunk of metal quite that way, I can empathize with his feelings. Look how much we sympathize with him in that moment. Ladies, if you will - if your husbands/boyfriends/lovers fell in love with a hunk of metal the way Mal fell in love with the ship, would you appreciate it that much? And yet, we all felt Mal in that moment, yes? Now contrast this with what we felt about Kaylee. Who apparently is so turned on by engines that she screws guys in engine rooms. Anyone feel any empathy with her? Anyone feel like - wow. She really loves that engine. Or did anyone think "She's awfully kooky..." That's how I felt. I'm asking everyone to consider their own feelings, and it may turn out that I'm all alone on this one. But this is what I saw - and I didn't like it.
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But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you?
Yes and no. If I have to believe that she is just hopelessly in love with him, and has no resources of self defense available to her, no. I won't like this at all. But...she put him quite in his place on this issue of calling her a whore, and she'll earn his respect over time. Of that I'm certain. She's that dignified, gracious, and intelligent. OTOH, I think we do her a disservice if we think even for one minute that she isn't subject to the same human emotions that anyone else has just because she is a companion.
SIDEBAR NOTE: I'm an Andromeda refugee... and in the Drom universe, my favorite topic was Nietzschean matriarchy - because it required us to look at the idea of matriarchy outside of our own cultural boxes...the companion idea requires similar (although I don't think as much) stretch...a companion is not a whore, and is not a prostitute, any more than a surgeon is a barber... the profession has elevated considerably, it requires a postsecondary school education, and does not come with negative effects such as pimps and drugs (so far as I can tell). This woman is not someone who has had the softer emotions beaten out of her by one guy after another who climbs on top of her and abuses her. She isn't someone who is working the streets, in and out of jail, etc...she's a refined woman who can fall in love just as easily as the next woman, skill or no skill. And falling in love or developing a crush or any other thing, will bring about the same emotional confusion that it does for anyone else, notwithstanding her profession, and perhaps even more so because of it - because she isn't used to not being in control of things in this realm of(as Delvo calls it) LSDR.
I'm hoping that we learn more about the companion academy, and about Inara, and how she struggles to balance her own attractions with her sense of professionalism. Just a thought exercise -how do psychologists fall in love without persistently analyzing their lovers? And what happens if they fall in love with someone who their clinical knowledge tells them is an emotional basketcase? Do they stop being human beings because of clinical knowledge?
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
First of all, the scene I'm talking about with Inara isn't the negotiation scene. It's after Mal has given everyone the plan and they're preparing to leave him, when she interrupts what she's doing to stare at him, how many times, three? And then the "You don't have to die alone!" speech where she's practically having a nervous breakdown at the concept of not being with him again. Nobody else had much hesitation about accepting his wishes and decisions. It's what he wants; her self-interest in this is just woefully overdone.
Well, yes, but I liked it!
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Fourth, there's the rush to the end of the story with no development; we didn't see Inara's crush building or any particular reason for,
Yes well, what possible reason can a woman of her means have for having a crush on Mal? None... so I'm rather glad that we haven't been given one - other than what SHE sees IN him...(Jaynesville), and THAT could turn out to be a disappointment... I like that she has a totally unreasonable crush on Mal. See my comments above.
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we just see that it overwhelms her life, and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place.
I agree... this could be going too fast...
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Fifth, there's the infusion of sex where it doesn't make sense. Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived.
I had different reasons for hating this scene ... but this is another good one...
Quote:Agreed...
And when something's obviously shoehorned in there when it wasn't necessary to the story, we have to ask what the real reason is...
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Oh, I know teacher! It's so that JW can preach at us his particular philosophy of promiscuity! After all, his message isn't one we're bombarded with all the time already, it's truly original! I don't have a problem with sex in general, but I see no reason to forcibly infuse it into everything else in life either.
Agreed...
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That's one way it can become unhealthy and problematic, and, perhaps more importantly to a TV show (as opposed to real life), it's just lazy shortcut storytelling.
Agreed!
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Please ignore him. Please God in Heaven just ignore him and maybe he'll go away.
On the other hand, I always wanted an arch-nemesis.
"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne
Be careful about that. I once had an arch-nemesis, and wound up being fairly good friends with him...
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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Uhm Delvo, you're strange. But the board needs diversity. So hi there.
This was the best episode to date. Well written, great characterization on all parts. And I really hate it when someone uses the word "contrived" in reference to television. Television is a medium that borrows heavily from everything; from music to books to reality, and even other tv shows. You can't avoid being contrived in television, becuase everything is borrowed or copied from something else. The fact that Joss and Edlund can produce and an original show, with as few contrived scenarios as it has, shows that Joss is now and will forever be, one of the best damn people in the business.
You wath the show. You probably like the show. Don't get hung up on the unavoidable.
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I got nothing
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Quote:
Uhm Delvo, you're strange.
I do get accused of that a lot, but usually they specify how or why!
Quote:That's not what I meant by "contrived". I meant "too unlikely and coincidental; forced; out of place; not believable as a part of the story; a conspicuous intrusion into or imposition upon the story by something else, signalled by its jarring failure to fit and make sense".
I really hate it when someone uses the word "contrived" in reference to television... You can't avoid being contrived in television, becuase everything is borrowed or copied from something else.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
Second, I'm not complaining about the casualness with which sex is presented, which I know in many people's minds equals "maturity" about it. I DO, in fact, find that attitude immature because it's generally a trait of children to pretend that certain actions have no consequences at all.
Are you talking physical consequences or emotional? We haven't been given much information from the show about STDs 500 years in the future, but I think its safe to assume that contraception is still practiced. And it certainly didn't seem as though Kaylee had any big love thing for Bester. Inara has apparently been trained to deal with the emotional consequences associated with the sexual aspects of her job, perhaps this is why she hasn't just jumped Mal already...aside from the OMR kiss. But since when are children the only people who believe their actions have no consequences? Just because they're TV characters doesn't mean they can't be immature.
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But I understand that many people in real life and on TV see it very differently, and I didn't bring that up because I know that last sentence makes me look exactly like Loonytoon's fire&brimstone preacher to some of you and I don't care to bother getting into that fight here.
Loonytoon's opinions are not my problem with him. Its his way of stating them. Your arguments are intelligent and your tone is respecful. I'm thoroughly enjoying this debate.
Quote:In my opinion I don't think that Inara or Kaylee have acted like squealing teens around Mal and Simon, despite the fact that Kaylee probably is still a teenager. But how often have they talked about them behind their backs? Cause honestly I can't remember any that weren't expository in some way.
First, they're about as subtle with it as a sledgehammer to the head. Seond, there's the dreamy, slightly drugged-looking goo-goo eyes every time Kaylee and Inara see or talk about their target men. Third, there's HOW OFTEN they manage to end up talking about their target men behind their backs.
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Fourth, there's the rush to the end of the story with no development; we didn't see Inara's crush building or any particular reason for, we just see that it overwhelms her life,
How so?
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and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place.
I completely agree with this one. But I've seen Joss and Co. pull off stranger things, so I'm going to reserve judgement on these two for just a little longer.
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Fifth, there's the infusion of sex where it doesn't make sense. Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived.
I thought it was fairly obvious that Bester was not quite the mechanic that Mal thought he was. We heard about Wash's glowing recs, but we only heard from Mal about what a genius Bester was. Mal's not perfect, I can believe that somebody would fob off their crappy mechanic on a newbie like Mal. As for Kaylee, I'm believe in happy accidents too.
Its so nice to participate in a debate that hasn't spiraled down to name calling.
"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne
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Quote:True enough, but that's Mal's character flaw. Kaylee and Inara both did great jobs in my mind of proving Mal was wrong in his assessments of them. Kaylee showed that she was a capable and intelligent young woman who in addition to being a superb mechanic also likes having sex. Sure, he was kind of a jerk, but not every guy I've had sex with treated me like a princess and I certainly don't think I'm a prairie harpy. The important part for me was that both Kaylee and Inara showed that Mal's bad opinion of them was not a true picture of their character and that their attitudes toward sex did not define who they were.
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
I don't either. I think he called her that because that's what he thinks of a female who has to get it on with his engineer in his engine room, especially an engineer who apparently doesn't care enough about her to ensure that's shes appropriately clothed before he gets up to strut around half naked talking about her behind her back. And while I don't share the opinion that promiscuity is "o.k." I also am not basing my opinions of the sexist portrayal here on that. What I'm saying is that this episode showed the defining characteristics of just about every character of the show.
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Ladies, if you will - if your husbands/boyfriends/lovers fell in love with a hunk of metal the way Mal fell in love with the ship, would you appreciate it that much? And yet, we all felt Mal in that moment, yes? Now contrast this with what we felt about Kaylee. Who apparently is so turned on by engines that she screws guys in engine rooms. Anyone feel any empathy with her? Anyone feel like - wow. She really loves that engine. Or did anyone think "She's awfully kooky..." That's how I felt. I'm asking everyone to consider their own feelings, and it may turn out that I'm all alone on this one. But this is what I saw - and I didn't like it.
I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say about this one? Did you feel that the show was making some kind of statement about Mal and Kaylee's morals? Because my first reaction upon realizing Kaylee was doing it with the mechanic was "Good for you, girl!" Serenity makes Kaylee hot, but Mal is so obsessed with the ship that he'd rather die than abandon it. Personally, I think Kaylee's attitude is the healthier one.
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But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you?
Yes and no. If I have to believe that she is just hopelessly in love with him, and has no resources of self defense available to her, no. I won't like this at all. But...she put him quite in his place on this issue of calling her a whore, and she'll earn his respect over time. Of that I'm certain. She's that dignified, gracious, and intelligent. OTOH, I think we do her a disservice if we think even for one minute that she isn't subject to the same human emotions that anyone else has just because she is a companion.
I agree. Mal's opinion of her occupation is definitely one of the obstacles in the way of any possible relationship for them. As long as there is never a scene where Inara confronts Mal and says, "You're right, I'm a whore. I love you," Inara will still be okay in my book.
Quote:
SIDEBAR NOTE: I'm an Andromeda refugee... and in the Drom universe, my favorite topic was Nietzschean matriarchy - because it required us to look at the idea of matriarchy outside of our own cultural boxes...the companion idea requires similar (although I don't think as much) stretch...a companion is not a whore, and is not a prostitute, any more than a surgeon is a barber... the profession has elevated considerably, it requires a postsecondary school education, and does not come with negative effects such as pimps and drugs (so far as I can tell). This woman is not someone who has had the softer emotions beaten out of her by one guy after another who climbs on top of her and abuses her. She isn't someone who is working theNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
This episode was amazing, and while there are so many things I'd like to say about it. Time and my job make that impossible. So perhaps I'll simply respond to the Inara/Kaylee discussion.
There is a certain goo-goo-eyed-ness associated with Inara and Kaylee, and perhaps this is immature, but to claim this is not the way adults act is a little ridiculous.;) Perhaps it is not the way adults feel they should act, but that's a completely different beast. Adults often act very immature when it comes to sex, especially when it comes to that particular person that one has decided is "the one," for lack of a better term. Yes it is true that most mature adults understand that actions carry consequences, but frequently, single adults do not necessarily act on those concerns. However, I haven't seen any immature sexuality yet in the show and being goo-goo-eyed about someone does not necessarily constitute immaturity or girlishness.
As for Kaylee in the engine room with Butt-head the mechanic:
I was disappointed with the scene, not because I feel that such explicit sexuality takes away from Kaylee's innocence or her character. In fact the sexuality of the scene was the only thing I found acceptable. The idea that Kaylee is somehow a "natural," as it were, when it comes to fixing advance interplanetary (perhaps interstellar) propulsion system is a little hard to stomach. I suppose we must accept Kaylee as a sort of Lisa Vito from My Cousin Vinny. And that would be acceptable, but there was not enough background to support that and therefore the scene failed. Even geniuses don't magically know what they know. Lisa Vito knows how to fix cars because she was exposed to auto-mechanics, which is her family's principal career option. If I were Mal I think I would have wanted to know where Kaylee picked up this talent of hers. Where was the line from Kaylee, "My father was a space-propulsion mechanic and my two brothers are ... etc." It is somewhat of a fine point I admit, but it is important to support Kaylee's competence as an engineer. Despite Kaylee's resourceful repair of the Senernity's engine, that scene kind of made her look like a bimbo
As for Inara in the shuttle with Mal:
I found nothing disappointing about this scene. Inara's desperate attitude was completely justified. It is nothing but an assumption to think that she feels anything for Mal other then friendship based on this scene, although I think we are supposed to think she does. I don't believe the scene was overdone. Were I Inara, I probably would have been just as desperate to think that anyone I was friends with, whether they called me a "whore" or not, were to die a miserable suffocating death all alone. As for her attitude not being shared by the other crew members, I think that is also an assumption, because the scenes did not suggest that the other crew members didn't feel the same, but simply that they didn't vocalize it in as articulate and verbose a manner. Perhaps they are more willing to accept Mal's authority or perhaps Inara is well trained in being very verbally articulate. In any respect, I think Inara acted appropriately in that scene.
I think the principal attitude about sex shared by the crew members is more a function of being caged up in a confined space for days or weeks at a time. Delvo's arguments about sexuality onboard the Serentiy would carry much more weight, I think, if we were talking about people who weren't forced to live so closely around one another. But when people live in such a confined space, some emotional barriers begin to fall and sexual appeal between characters might become more obvious.
That's my story.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
As for Kaylee in the engine room with Butt-head the mechanic:
I was disappointed with the scene, not because I feel that such explicit sexuality takes away from Kaylee's innocence or her character. In fact the sexuality of the scene was the only thing I found acceptable. The idea that Kaylee is somehow a "natural," as it were, when it comes to fixing advance interplanetary (perhaps interstellar) propulsion system is a little hard to stomach. Even geniuses don't magically know what they know. Lisa Vito knows how to fix cars because she was exposed to auto-mechanics, which is her family's principal career option. If I were Mal I think I would have wanted to know where Kaylee picked up this talent of hers. Where was the line from Kaylee, "My father was a space-propulsion mechanic and my two brothers are ... etc."
Well, she kind of did. Kaylee said her father said she was a natural. Her father who apparently is a mechanic since Kaylee said she worked for him when there was work to be had.
"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne
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