FTL or not FTL...
POSTED BY: BadgersHat
UPDATED: Friday, May 14, 2004 20:35
VIEWED: 17361
PAGE 3 of 9
Quote:Guys, you're forgetting one critical fact. Joss can't count.
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But, at the end of "The Train Job" one of the blue hands men said "We didn't travel 86 million miles...".
I did a google and the average distance from the sun to the earth is 92,900,000 miles.
(Buffy's age versus her date of birth. Spike being "barely 200" after being vamped in the late 1800s. Etc.)
Quote:Okay, that's it. I so want to see a "Pulp Fiction" episode revolving around a pair of BlueHands.
Originally posted by ljosalf:
the HoB had to throw their little killing gadget in an overnight bag and hop a fast ship to Ariel.
It can be Firefly's big "departure" episode, like the Buffy musical, or the puppet Angel show.
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Prof.: These are the dark matter engines I invented. They allow my starship to travel between galaxies in mere hours.
Cubert: That's impossible! You can't go faster than the speed of light.
Prof.: Of course not! That's why scientists increased the speed of light in 2208!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:Quote:
The War to Unite the Planets was six years done and the victorious Alliance was spreading its control further and further throughout the galaxy.
Those who had fought for independence and so bloodily lost had no choice but to live by Alliance law.
Some never would and those few found themselves drifting, flying to the furthest reaches of the galaxy, to the worlds less civilized - some barely settled - where the Alliance might not control their lives.
These were hard worlds, and work was where you found it. Those who got by lived by a simple creed.
Any job, anywhere.
There you have it. They were traveling throughout the galaxy. Not much point in doing that if all the inhabitable planets exist in one system.
SergeantX
Hmm, not sure of the source of that quote. However, one of the strongest pieces of evidence in favour of the single system theory is Book's intro (used in the first few episodes) where he says:
Quote:
After the Earth was used up, we found a new solar system and hundreds of new 'Earths' were terraformed and colonized. The central planets formed 'The Alliance' and decided all the planets had to join under their rule...After the war, many of the Independents...drifted to the edges of the system, far from Alliance control.
To me, this is pretty definitive. If the unused quote mentioned above is genuine, the fact that the producers bothered to change the opening to be much more specific is just about the final nail in the coffin of the "many system" theory.
Yes, I know that the later show opening (narrated by Mal) talks about "a whole galaxy of earths". While this evidence supports the many systems theory, it is certainly a line that could be hyperbole or exaggeration, while the Book line seems to me to be very specific.
Hans
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
A few points from my sciencey-but-not-particularly-well-trained-in-physics brain.
Firsty, on the idea of jumping between discreet velocities (ie without acceleration, as mentioned earlier). When I read the idea it was instantly apparent to me that this is a similar idea to wormhole or bent-space travel. In the same way we imagine bending space to circumvent distantance between two points in space we can also image (with a little more difficulty perhaps) bending time to circumvent the distance between two points in time. Possibly. So acceleration (which = velocity/time and time is now 0) cannot be calculated (anything divided by 0 is not a number, as far as I know). Whether not being ably to calculate it means it doesn't actually happen, I'm not sure.
Secondly, the rather cunning idea of travelling through time and letting objects in space come to you might work (assuming the problems of Michael J. Fox's hideous exploding space-death could be worked out), but it'd be almost impossible to use it for anything other than exploration. For example, business travel - say you want to arrange a meeting with someone on a different planet. If you arrange the meeting with a present day contact, by the time you get to their offices you'll either be very, very late (depending on which way and how far you travelled) and so inter-planetary business would be really slow moving. Or you'd be very, very early which would mean your contact would have no idea about the deal you've showed up to discuss.
And lastly, while it is fun to debate people's theories on the physics/mechanics/astronomy of the 'Verse, I think it's pretty pointless anyone trying to assert that their version is 'what Joss intended' 'cause I really don't think the creative team behind Firefly care about that aspect of the show. They're fare more concerned with interesting characters and cool stories. And even if they did acquiesce and put down a set of rules about FLT, galaxy vs. system etc. I expect they'd hapily break them in a second if they had a story idea that went against them.
----------
I have no faith but it's all that I want
to be loved and believe
in my soul.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
To me, this is pretty definitive. If the unused quote mentioned above is genuine, the fact that the producers bothered to change the opening to be much more specific is just about the final nail in the coffin of the "many system" theory.
Yes, I know that the later show opening (narrated by Mal) talks about "a whole galaxy of earths". While this evidence supports the many systems theory, it is certainly a line that could be hyperbole or exaggeration, while the Book line seems to me to be very specific.
Poppycock! Balderdash! It's far more likely that Book's line was meant to be taken metaphorically and the fact that they changed it, to clear up any confusion, pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of the "one system" theory.
Think about it. First of all the one system theory rests on the unfounded assumption that there is no faster-than-light travel. If that's the case, how did we ever get to this system? And are you seriously suggesting that one system contains 'hundreds of new earths'?? The one system theory strains believability to the point of breakage.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Look--
We KNOW for a fact, they're NOT on Earth, due to the numerous "Earth-That_Was" references, and such.
So, they're not here. They're also not on ANY of the other planets in the Solar system, because they are either complettely impossible to terraform (some being made entirely of gas) or too far away to bother. Also, they all have names (Mars, Venus, etc) and would likely NOT be renamed.
Therefore, they MUST bein a different star system, which means they MUST have at least HAD FTL drive, because the nearest star to us is Alpha Centauri, which is 4.6 years travel time AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, and as far as we know, there's no planets there anyway...
So, FTL seems to me that it MUCT exist in the 'verse, or at least DID at some point during the colonization. Also, if we have the tech needed to terraform on such a huge level (changing atmosphere, AND gravity, of a planet), it seems we MUCT have a corresponding transport tech to match it.
But again, I might not know what the hell I'm talking about...
--Jefé The Hat
***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
>Therefore, they MUST bein a different star system, which >means they MUST have at least HAD FTL drive, because the >nearest star to us is Alpha Centauri, which is 4.6 years travel >time AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, and as far as we know, there's >no planets there anyway...
I prefer the no-FTL idea if only for the aesthetic appeal of an alternative to warp/wormhole/hyperspace plot devices, but your point is a good one. In 500 years, it would be hard to get to a new world and to have had time to build up a system-spanning civilization of terraformed worlds (leaving aside the weirdness of a system so full of easily terraformed terrestrial bodies).
But here is a possible no-FTL rebuttal:
But then again, we don't know how long they've been settled on the new frontier. Early periods in Alliance history (the age of the Companion tea ceremony etc) could have occurred before or after the departure from Earth-that-was.
And while I'm throwing stuff on the table, I have an idea about some of the references.
1) We already use "galaxy" as an expression for impossibly large things in size, distance, or quantity, so it makes more sense that this would be hyperbole than a reference to a "new system".
2) I believe Mal refers to the fact that the meek have inherited not a one of the vast number of earths spinning (I don't recall the exact number. . .>70?). This has largely been used in defense of the many systems hypothesis, since it seems ridiculous for that many worlds to exist in a single solar system. But there's no reason to believe that those worlds are within reach of our heroes. It seems likely that the exodus from Earth-that-was was a diaspora in many directions. Many, many sublight ships could have gone to cololnize promising systems. And since you can communicate at light-speed, it seems likely that they could have received progress reports from the other settled systems even if the reports are 5, 20, or even 50 years out of date.
Diego
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Oh yeah,
But the main point I forgot to mention is that those who've suggested there simply isn't enough data to reject one hypothesis or the other are probably right.
Oh well, I guess we'll have to wait 500 years for the answer! ;)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Well Hat humanity may have used very large high sub-light ships to travel to other worlds. So at say .90c it’s about 5 or 6 years travel to the Centauri system, which wouldn't be that bad aboard a generational ship. Maybe it took a generation or two or three to find a suitable system and send for the other generational ships to colonize the system.
Think of it as a futuristic wagon train from the 1800's, which is kind of keeping with the Firefly view of the 'verse.
Since we have no reference to when teraforming of worlds began and that in Shindig the slaver states that they are still terforming worlds its possible that the worlds of firefly have only been inhabited for a few hundred years.
The Firefly CCG Web Site:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Bllm119/firefly_ccg_web_site.htm
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
Look--
We KNOW for a fact, they're NOT on Earth, due to the numerous "Earth-That_Was" references, and such.
So, they're not here. They're also not on ANY of the other planets in the Solar system, because they are either complettely impossible to terraform (some being made entirely of gas) or too far away to bother. Also, they all have names (Mars, Venus, etc) and would likely NOT be renamed.
Therefore, they MUST bein a different star system, which means they MUST have at least HAD FTL drive, because the nearest star to us is Alpha Centauri, which is 4.6 years travel time AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, and as far as we know, there's no planets there anyway...
So, FTL seems to me that it MUCT exist in the 'verse, or at least DID at some point during the colonization. Also, if we have the tech needed to terraform on such a huge level (changing atmosphere, AND gravity, of a planet), it seems we MUCT have a corresponding transport tech to match it.
But again, I might not know what the hell I'm talking about...
--Jefé The Hat
***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne
But you can't have "corresponding technology" if the technology you're talking about is impossible. Anyways, perhaps they found a wormhole or something that took them to this new system.
How would there be 'inner' and 'outer' planets if there is more than one system involved? NAh, seems more likely that it's one system of ten or so planets, each with ten or so moons. I just can't believe that Serenity can exceede the speed of light...
Besides, remember in the pilot episode, when she passed the Reaver ship? They were only doing 5-10 mph. So maybe it's just one planet, with a couple dozen moons, and spaceships just move reeaaallly slow.
-Steve
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME