FTL or not FTL...
POSTED BY: BadgersHat
UPDATED: Friday, May 14, 2004 20:35
VIEWED: 17361
PAGE 1 of 9
Okay folks, I ain't no physicist, but those of you familiar with me know I read a thing or three here and there.
Here's the question--
Is Serenity traveling fater than light, and if so, how?
Faster than Light seems to be impossible, if you believe Einstein (and there's a lot of reasons to do just that).
However, there's many that disagree, not so much with the faster than light, but with the speed of light itself--they think that the speed of light is NOT a constant velocity, it shifts in many cases due to various factors.
Is faster than light speed possible in normal space? Not bloody likely, but then again, you never know. Some say, the Conservation of Energy prevents it, some say it's just another speed. We in our lifetimes will likely not know the truth.
But, I don't think any of us can give more than an opinion on this matter, regardless of our reading habits. Theoretical physicists create.... wait for it... THEORIES. Theories are NOT facts, they are ideas on something, and ideas on how to maybe prove or disprove those somethings. Nothing more, nothing less.
The most brilliant minds in the world are in disagreement about this issue. There's the hypserstring idea, the quantum tunnelling idea, hyperspace, warp space, etc etc etc.
Personally, I think hyperspace is the true answer--a plane of existence in which everything is accelerated, meaning that even if we travel a fraction of lightspeed, that speed is exponentially faster than it would be in normal space. But, I don't know from theoretical physics and such.
Anyway, the long-since-buried point is, we shouldn't quibble over FTL or not FTL possibilities, because we simply don't know.
Oh, and just for the record, there IS sound in space, just WAAAAAYY below human hearing (it's recordable with highly sensitive instruments, because, after all, there IS air in space, it's just EXTREMELY thin--if space were a TRUE vacuum, everything within it would collapse, and we wouldn't be here to have this stimulating discussion).
--Jefé The Hat
***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Personally, I agree with Fred, that the more the more you are aware of time the more slowly it moves, which could make light speed travel possible, but only if you were to concentrate really hard.
Actually, I don't worry about it too much. It's science fiction, and I'm way more interested in the characters and the stories than all the techical details.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:
Personally, I agree with Fred, that the more the more you are aware of time the more slowly it moves, which could make light speed travel possible, but only if you were to concentrate really hard.
But wouldn't you be concentrating really hard on trying to forget about time???
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Of course this begs the old "one system/many systems" argument - which I can now definitively resolve once and for all.
The original version of the pilot began with the following spoken intro, it was also printed out on the screen.
Quote:
The War to Unite the Planets was six years done and the victorious Alliance was spreading its control further and further throughout the galaxy.
Those who had fought for independence and so bloodily lost had no choice but to live by Alliance law.
Some never would and those few found themselves drifting, flying to the furthest reaches of the galaxy, to the worlds less civilized - some barely settled - where the Alliance might not control their lives.
These were hard worlds, and work was where you found it. Those who got by lived by a simple creed.
Any job, anywhere.
There you have it. They were traveling throughout the galaxy. Not much point in doing that if all the inhabitable planets exist in one system.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Of course this begs the old "one system/many systems" argument - which I can now definitively resolve once and for all.
But, at the end of "The Train Job" one of the blue hands men said "We didn't travel 86 million miles...".
I did a google and the average distance from the sun to the earth is 92,900,000 miles. And since the blue hands man made it seem as though 86 million miles was a great expanse and interstellar travel is (to put it lightly) a touch more I'm going to side with one system.
I would also think that some of the reasons why that spoken intro was taken out was that it sounds corny and makes it seem too star trekish, too Sci-Fi. The one system theory seems more plausible. And I seem to think that being realistic (eg no aliens) was on the to do list for Joss given the way the universe is constructed.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
Faster than Light seems to be impossible, if you believe Einstein (and there's a lot of reasons to do just that).
Actually, Relativity only states that we can't accelerate to the speed of light. So, if we could find a way to just jump to a faster speed than light, it wouldn't break this theory.
Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
However, there's many that disagree, not so much with the faster than light, but with the speed of light itself--they think that the speed of light is NOT a constant velocity, it shifts in many cases due to various factors.
Well, it is constant in the medium that it is in. So if it's in vacuum it's approx. 3x10^8 m/s, but, it would go at a different speed if in a different medium.
But, there is current research that is investigating if the speed of light has changed with the evolution of the universe (Something that we cannot manipulate).
Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
The most brilliant minds in the world are in disagreement about this issue. There's the hypserstring idea, the quantum tunneling idea, hyperspace, warp space, etc etc etc.
I wasn't aware that hyper-strings or quantum tunneling could be used to create an FTL drive. I'd be interested in some references
But, as I am aware, warping space and space folding are just ways to get around the issue by making the distance between the two points shorter. Thereby creating the illusion of FTL travel, but, not actually breaking the rules. Nice ideas, eh
Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
Personally, I think hyperspace is the true answer--a plane of existence in which everything is accelerated, meaning that even if we travel a fraction of light-speed, that speed is exponentially faster than it would be in normal space. But, I don't know from theoretical physics and such.
I can't remember any real science on this. Did I miss (or forget) this in Kaku's Hyperspace? It's been awhile.
Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
Anyway, the long-since-buried point is, we shouldn't quibble over FTL or not FTL possibilities, because we simply don't know.
We definitely don't know, very true. But, I still find it's fun to debate.
Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
Oh, and just for the record, there IS sound in space, just WAAAAAYY below human hearing (it's recordable with highly sensitive instruments, because, after all, there IS air in space, it's just EXTREMELY thin--if space were a TRUE vacuum, everything within it would collapse, and we wouldn't be here to have this stimulating discussion).
Well, it depends on what you mean by "TRUE vacuum". There is a theory called dark energy which (as I know it) is used as an explanation of why we are seeing the galaxies accelerate away from us for no apparent reason. So, there would be that there even if no gas existed.
But, I don't see any reason that it would collapse if nothing existed in between. Could you elaborate, please?
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Actually, Relativity only states that we can't accelerate to the speed of light. So, if we could find a way to just jump to a faster speed than light, it wouldn't break this theory.
I find your use of the word 'just' here interesting
Can you give any example of a theory that would allow for such 'discontinuous' acceleration?
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Actually, Relativity only states that we can't accelerate to the speed of light. So, if we could find a way to just jump to a faster speed than light, it wouldn't break this theory.
I find your use of the word 'just' here interesting
Yah, I know, it's a big one
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Can you give any example of a theory that would allow for such 'discontinuous' acceleration?
I don't think that one exists. Asked the wife, and she's pretty sure that one doesn't exist either.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Couple things:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Actually, Relativity only states that we can't accelerate to the speed of light. So, if we could find a way to just jump to a faster speed than light, it wouldn't break this theory.
I coule be misunderstanding this, but... Since acceleration is simply a change in velocity, there is no way to go from traveling less than the speed of light to grater than the speed of light (read: a change in velocity) without accelerating.
Quote:
Well, it depends on what you mean by "TRUE vacuum". There is a theory called dark energy which (as I know it) is used as an explanation of why we are seeing the galaxies accelerate away from us for no apparent reason. So, there would be that there even if no gas existed.
Having just come from a lecture dealing with Dark Energy (literally, walked into my office on my way back from the lecture, then checked the boards), I think I should probably comment here. Couple things:
1) If you define "True Vaccuum" as there being no matter ot speak of, then everything would not "fly apart", simply because gravity holds it all together. Most models that astrophysicists use pretend that the minimal amount of matter outside of stars and planets and such is actually not there. They don't take it into account because it's so minimal as not to affect anything. Nothing would fly apart, gravity is strong than that.
2) But yes, even in the perfect vaccuum there is something there. Vaccuum energy. This is essentially small quantum mechanical fluctuations in the amount of energy inherant in the fabric of space. So technically, you can't have a perfect vaccuum, because this vaccuum energy is actually creating and anhilating particles and anti-particles constantly, an effect which is key to Hawking Radiation, the reason black holes can evaporate.
3) But this vaccuum energy is possibly different from Dark Energy. Dark Energy is just a name given to something that astrophysicists can't quite explain. They know some of the properties, and they know what they want it to cause, but they don't know what it is or even very much about it. There have been hundreds of papers published in recent years as to what kind of theoretical formulation we can give to them. But, regardless, it's what's responsible for galaxies moving away from us at an increasing rate, as SigmaNunki wrote. Galaxies move away from each other at what originally seemed like a constant speed (The Hubble Parameter, formerly the Hubble Constant) depending on their distance from us. Recent observation of very distant supernovae seem to show that this rate of expansion of the universe (govered by the hubble parameter) may, indeed, not be constant. Now this is fine, since one would naturally expect that the universe, which contains mass, would slow down as it expands as gravity tries to hold it closed. Imagine a rock falling back to the earth after you throw it. But, the observations show that the exact opposite is happening. The universe is actually accelerating with time. The expasion rate is even greater now than it was in the early universe(I'm talking about after inflation and the big bang, these are different scenarios). This effect is what the concept of Dark Energy was created to explain. This change in the hubble paramater with time. Exactly what Dark Energy is is still a matter of great debate.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Of course this begs the old "one system/many systems" argument - which I can now definitively resolve once and for all.
But, at the end of "The Train Job" one of the blue hands men said "We didn't travel 86 million miles...".
I did a google and the average distance from the sun to the earth is 92,900,000 miles. And since the blue hands man made it seem as though 86 million miles was a great expanse and interstellar travel is (to put it lightly) a touch more I'm going to side with one system.
I would also think that some of the reasons why that spoken intro was taken out was that it sounds corny and makes it seem too star trekish, too Sci-Fi. The one system theory seems more plausible. And I seem to think that being realistic (eg no aliens) was on the to do list for Joss given the way the universe is constructed.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
As for 86 million miles being a far distance, keep in mind that they covered it in something less than 2 days, 3 at the tops. Jayne had to have a chance to contact the Feds, the Feds had to have a chance to contact the Hands of Blue, the HoB had to throw their little killing gadget in an overnight bag and hop a fast ship to Ariel. The planning and execution of the heist took approximately 3 days max; ergo, 86 million miles in about 2 days, or 1 day to accelerate and 1 day to decelerate. Even so not an appreciable percentage of light speed. Serenity kinda lumbers along by comparison.
Ljosalf
The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME