If you like Bush & what he's done to this world, you are evil.
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 19:38
VIEWED: 30693
PAGE 15 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
As Auraptor is the only one on the other side of this issue who really can debate this,this is directed to you. I am assuming you either condone torture or you don't. If you condone torture, then you are an evil person, plain and simple. In all our movies and television shows its the bad guys who torture and the good guys who overcome. Well guess what, Bush condones and promotes torture, making him evil. Hell our beloved Firefly has the evil guy doing torture and the good guys using violence only when they had to. The war aside you should not agree with this policy. We can go a step further, we have tortured people who are not guilty of any crime, I mean come on, the guy is not a good man. So to paraphrase you are either with the torturers or you are against them. Where do you stand?
When there are no heroes where will we turn?
Sorry to go all Bill Clinton on ya, but that depends on how torture is defined. I don't believe Bush condones torture, at least not as I define it.
Electric shocks ? - Torture . No good
Chopping off of limbs, extremities? - Torture. No good
Bamboo shoots ? Torture, no good.
Caning ? Torture, no good.
Water-boarding ? - Fuzzy area. Only to be used in rare ,extreme situations
Sleep deprivation? - Not torture
Cold Floor beds? - Not torture
Over exposure to Celine Dion's greatest hits? - Borderline, but not unless it exceeds 24 straight hours.
Now, if a prisoner agrees to talk, and is still submitted to these things, regardless of their willingness to comply, then yes....the above WOULD be torture.
I guess that's where we differ. I don't automatically assume that we harshly interrogate folks for the pure hell of it, while many on this board do. Understand, we're not dealing w/ a group of Lamb Scouts here, but committed believers in their holy jihad to destroy all things not like them. That includes you, me and pretty much everyone we all know. Thems are folks I don't rightly mind getting a little rough with, as long as it's well with in limits.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Aurpaptor you realize that people have died under our torture, right? Don't you think torturing someone to death is a bit harsh? The specific examale I am talking about is the one who was chained to the floor and left to starve to death. I wish water boarding was only used in extreme torture, and to be honest there are some interrogation techniques I understand them using, i.e where the woman supposedly wiped her vaginal blood on the Muslims face... odd but it worked and she got in trouble for it, burning the Koran I don't mind, psychological torture does not bother me as much as physical torture. You can live a healthy life after psych torture, but death is pretty final.
Edit: Just wanted to point out that not all the people we have tortured have been guilty of crimes. Some were released after we admitted they were not guilty of any crime. So our own government admits we have subjected completely guiltless people to these techniques.
Sleep, food deprivation can be fatal if not done right, the military does both so I can't say I would consider them harsh torture either, but chaining someone to a floor for days on end, beating them, water boarding are all forms of torture and they have been used on the innocents by us.
Just an fyi, they used water boarding during the Spanish Inquisition...they called it interrogation as well.
When there are no heroes where will we turn?
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Quote:This is where we completely part ways morally speaking- it IS torture & WE shouldn't do it to ANYONE, regardless of how 'bad' they might or might not be.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Water-boarding ? - Fuzzy area. Only to be used in rare ,extreme situations
Torture is unreliable,
it brings us down to their level,
and it makes us evil.
We put mad dogs to sleep; we do not torture them.
Somewhere in your brain you have sustained collateral damage, AU. Let the good side win...
isall
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Quote:That's a big EWWWWUE....I would write her up for that! Make her take mandatory hygiene classes for a year.
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
there are some interrogation techniques I understand them using, i.e where the woman supposedly wiped her vaginal blood on the Muslims face...
Not approving Chrisisall
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http://www.reference.com/search?q=water%20boarding
references to water boarding... our own military has court martialed people for it.
When there are no heroes where will we turn?
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avenging - as I pointed out, only in rare circumstances, and only if those in charge are mindful of the condition of the 'inmate' . I know sub sandwiches can ( and have been shown ) go much, much further in getting the trust of a detainee than a cold floor. But it depends on who you're dealing with. In tough times, I want the ABILITY to use tough tactics, even if we don't ever use them or not.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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"immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent. In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex. Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure."
Now, that doesn't sound so bad, does it?
What's the fussisall
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Quote:And if you break a mugger's leg during his attack on you, you can go to jail for it.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
In tough times, I want the ABILITY to use tough tactics, even if we don't ever use them or not.
Yeah, I trust the government to be able to judge these things fairly.
Sarcasmisall
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Quote:
It's funny how Iraq was training radical islamic terrorists, when as a secular government the radical islamic terrorists were gunning for iraq. It's kinda like if the US funded and trained Osama Bin Landen, oh, that actually happened didn't it. Ok, it's like if the US funded and trained the Taliban, ok, again, bad example...
There is a saying which I believe is Persian which the Islamic people use and it goes something like this, "My brother and I against my cousin and my cousin and I against the world." They also say, "The Friend of my enemy is my enemy..."
Quote:
But lets take the article head on:
"The secret training took place primarily at three camps--in Samarra, Ramadi, and Salman Pak"
Salman Pak, you conceed, was not used for such purpose, so I assume I don't need to prove it. So we have Samarra and Ramadi.
In the case of Samarra, I find nothing. I've not heard of it before, I admit, so I googled it. With the search "Samarra Terrorist Camp", I got nothing, the closest being news reports of the post invasion terrorist attacks on a mosque in the town of Samarra. So I see that as suspect at best.
Ramadi is much the same story. The only mention of Terrorist camps comes from the "Weekly Standard", which seems to have plucked the accusation from thin air.
So the main Terrorist training centres are "Salman Pak", which even the CIA knew wasn't, "Samarra" and "Ramadi" which seems to have no mention anywhere beyond the "Weekly Standards" seemingly unsupported editorial. The very fact that Samarra and Ramadi are mentioned in the same breath as Salman Pak bring them in to question, the fact that there seems to be no corroborating evidence seals the deal for me.
Finding these articles would be difficult if you desired to find them, and I somehow suspect that you wouldn't be too thrilled at finding the evidence. I would be thrilled at finding the information and yet even I can't be bothered to search too deeply so I can't tell you if these articles exist, but I can tell you from talking with Veterans of the Special Forces who were there that these camps did exist.
http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html
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Putting a conditional on torture is immoral. That is like saying it is occasionally okay to break the commandments. It is only torture if we do it this way...lol the reason we train for it is to prepare our soldiers for it. The course? Counter-torture techniques. Just because someone breaks does not mean that they are being honest either, they could be lying to stop the torture.
When there are no heroes where will we turn?
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