Nobel Peace Prize winner Mandela on U.S. Terrorist List

POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 7, 2008 09:44
VIEWED: 6253
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DEADLOCKVICTIM

Thursday, May 1, 2008 3:51 PM

...right up there along-side the Hamburgler and Wil E. Coyote

Quote:
WASHINGTON — Nobel Peace Prize winner and international symbol of freedom Nelson Mandela is flagged on U.S. terrorist watch lists and needs special permission to visit the USA.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-04-30-watchlist_N.htm

somewhere John Ashcroft is smiling....

KWICKO

Thursday, May 1, 2008 5:53 PM

I can see why the Bush regime would label him a terrorist - he was crucial in bringing democracy to South Africa, after all. The last thing Bush wants in the US is a functioning democracy...

So now we've labeled Mandela a terrorist, and we managed to stop the guy who wrote "Peace Train" from getting into the country. I feel soooooo much safer today.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Thursday, May 1, 2008 7:08 PM

Quote:
“Naturally the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

This is a quote I have hanging on the wall behind my desk - where I am sitting now.. I framed a copy not long after the rainbow warnings were popularized by Bush Co - John Ashcroft's baby....

Some of you probably know this or have seen it before. It rings true today.

And for those unfamiliar with the quote - the author is Hermann Goering, member of the Nazi Party, second in command of the Third Reich - speaking at the Nuremberg Trials after WWII

SIGNYM

Thursday, May 1, 2008 7:32 PM

Those that aren't stampeded by fear will go in for "righteous" violence. Because in their mind if your cause is just you can use any means possible.

Nice quote DLV.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, May 1, 2008 8:11 PM

One quick quote before I run out, given to me by a friend over the phone unintentionally.

"We all want peace, but you canno' shake hands with a closed fist, mahn, people need to not be so angry, yah?"

He's got a point.

-F

HERO

Thursday, May 1, 2008 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I can see why the Bush regime would label him a terrorist - he was crucial in bringing democracy to South Africa, after all. The last thing Bush wants in the US is a functioning democracy...

If by Bush regime you mean George W. Bush, then you are wrong. If you instead mean Jimmy Carter, George HW Bush, and Bill Clinton...then you are correct.

The African National Congress was labled a terrorist group in the late 1970s. Mandella was released in 1990 and elected President in 1994. In between all that Reagan orchestrated a policy that isolated South Africa and brought down their racist government. So to recap, Carter labled him a terrorist and George Bush (41) didn't clear it up when he got out of jail and Clinton (42) deliberately chose to ignore the distinction when he was elected President (after all...the Clinton's would never want to see a black man in a high office).

Since President Bush has done so much for Africa, especially compared to the prior administration, I suspect that this situation can be easily corrected. In fact Condi seems to be on top of making sure that this has little or no effect on the free travel of South Africans to and from the United States.

H

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:13 PM

Quote:
Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff says "common sense" suggests Mandela should be removed. He says the issue "raises a troubling and difficult debate about what groups are considered terrorists and which are not."

That is at the heart of the matter. The word "terrorist" is like the word "evil." It is a subjective judgment for people we don't like. All contrivances aside, "terrorist" is simply schoolyard namecalling on the international political stage.

Quote:
Guerrilla activities

In 1961, Mandela became the leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated as MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated a sabotage campaign against military and government targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war if sabotage failed to end apartheid. A few decades later, MK did wage a guerrilla war against the regime, especially during the 1980s, in which many civilians were killed. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad, and arranged for paramilitary training, visiting various African governments.

Mandela explains the move to embark on armed struggle as a last resort, when increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had achieved nothing and could not succeed.[6][2]

Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticised attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

They could have just as easily labeled this section "Terrorist Activities" instead of "Guerrilla Activities."

Edited to add links:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE1DA123AF932A0575BC
0A965958260
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE1D7113CF935A1575BC
0A967958260

--------------------------
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I can see why the Bush regime would label him a terrorist - he was crucial in bringing democracy to South Africa, after all. The last thing Bush wants in the US is a functioning democracy...

So now we've labeled Mandela a terrorist, and we managed to stop the guy who wrote "Peace Train" from getting into the country. I feel soooooo much safer today.

You should. Mandela was the military commander of the ANC and directly responsible for the murder of dozens if not hundreds of innocent people. This issue is often ignored, by Americans because Americans sympathized with the cause of anti-apartheid, much as Americans sympathize with the cause of the IRA in Northern Ireland. This is, however, shortsighted, and American sympathies do not change the horrible things done by the ANC and the IRA. Mandela was a terrorist, by just about any way you slice the pie.

Although Bush had nothing to do with labeling him a terrorist, that was done long ago by those the US and the UK. South Africa was already a democracy. Mandela had nothing to do with that. However, its debatable how much influence he had in bringing an end to apartheid. I suspect far less then he is given credit for since he was in jail through much of it. The real heroes in that struggle was more likely the political and economic sanctions applied to South Africa by the US, UK and other Western nations during the 80s.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

TANKOBITE

Thursday, May 1, 2008 10:31 PM

Godwin's law FTL. Second post?

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

FREDGIBLET

Tuesday, May 6, 2008 8:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tankobite:
Godwin's law FTL. Second post?

Nope.

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

A quote from a Nazi doesn't count, mentioning Nazis doesn't count, comparing people to Nazis is the ONLY application of Godwin's Law (though there are corollaries as well). Additionally obviously valid comparisons (comparing Darfur to the Holocaust for instance) also do not trip Godwin's Law.

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