Waterboarding- the real deal

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Friday, May 9, 2008 01:12
VIEWED: 11112
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CANTTAKESKY

Monday, May 5, 2008 2:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
But it turns out they actually started crying like little girls when coercive techniques were used on them, and the info they spilled saved lives.

How do you know the info they spilled saved lives?

Quote:
Information provided by two of the waterboarded prisoners, Mohammed and Zubaydah, accounted for 25% of the human intelligence reports circulated by the CIA on Al Qaeda in the five years after the Sept. 11 attacks, Hayden said."

Again, how do we know these human intelligence reports are accurate?

And, can we trust the CIA to tell the truth as well? I mean, they are spies, and spies lie for a living.

WALKERHOUND

Monday, May 5, 2008 4:06 AM

a. interrogation works. (people like to believe other wise but....it's just not true).

b. torture is another way of saying: "method of interrogation we won't use"

i'm almost temped to ask what some of you would consider "acceptable" methods to extract information?

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, May 5, 2008 5:12 AM

Interrogation = asking questions

Torture = the act of inflicting excruciating pain, or anguish of the mind or body

It's good to get the difference straight.

It takes skill to undertake a proper, effective investigative interrogation.

Any thug can torture.

It's why its generally so popular.

CITIZEN

Monday, May 5, 2008 7:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wow, you stumble across one snarky line which, for you, passes off as 'witty' and you keep using it, over and over, huh? I simply am pointing it out to YOU because you keep posting the same drivel over and over again,

You're the one who keeps it relevant, by posting the same evil fascist wannabe terrorist cowardly crap

.

Quote:
under the delusion that you're "winning" something, when in fact, you aren't.

You're the one who keeps saying, "I win, You lose" over and over again, stop forcing your own idiocy and insecurities on me.

Quote:
I find it funny that it's important for you to imagine me as some figment of your imagination. Says a lot about you, now don't it ?

Not really, since you made it up like the troll you are. I don't think you're a figment of my imagination, shit for brains, I know you're a figment of someone else's. There's a lot of evidence to that end, for instance its plain and clear you are too stupid to understand English, switch on a computer, use a keyboard etc, but you're managing to just about do these things because your puppet master does them. Says a hell of a lot about you, doesn't it.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

SIGNYM

Monday, May 5, 2008 10:43 AM

Quote:
I don't know what you're talking about, Cops shoot unarmed civilians all the time in the US. It's not illegal for a cop to shoot an unarmed person if he believes there is an imminent threat.

So what you're saying is... it's legal in some circumstances but illegal in others. NOT the blanket "legality" that you seem to be seeking for torture, right? So, under what circumstances would you allow torture, on whose authority, and under what circumstances would you make it illegal? And in that light, what do you make of the CIA's use of waterboarding (as well as black detention centers, extraordinary rendition, and outsourcing torture)? This is the CIA's official statement:

Quote:
"The CIA has not used waterboarding for almost five years. We used it against these three high-valued detainees because of the circumstances of the time," Hayden said.

"Very critical of those circumstances was the belief that additional catastrophic attacks against the homeland were imminent. In addition to that, my agency and our community at large had limited knowledge about al Qaeda and its workings."

Mohammed, an alleged planner of the September 11, 2001, attacks and major figure in al Qaeda, was arrested in Pakistan in 2003. According to the U.S. military, Zubayda and al-Nashiri were both important figures in al Qaeda, and al-Nashiri was the mastermind behind the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen.

McConnell, who also testified at the hearing, said waterboarding remains a technique in the CIA's arsenal according to The Associated Press. He said it would require the president's consent and legal approval from the attorney general, the AP reported. McConnell also told the Senate Intelligence Committee that al Qaeda and its affiliates remain the top threat to U.S. interests at home and abroad. He also expressed fear that al Qaeda in Iraq may be planning to spread out and launch attacks in other countries. McConnell issued the concern in sobering, wide-ranging testimony that laid out the latest assessment of the terrorist threats the United States and its allies faces.

"We are increasingly concerned that even as coalition forces inflict significant damage on al Qaeda inside Iraq, they may deploy resources to mount attacks outside that country. Al Qaeda's North Africa affiliate ... is active in North Africa and is extending its target set to include U.S. and Western interests," McConnell said.

Hayden said the al Qaeda safe haven in Pakistan is a serious problem that is increasingly recognized by the Pakistani government as a threat to its own existence, which has prompted a better understanding of the need for U.S. military help. "Our partners in Pakistan {HA!!} understand that this is a Pakistani problem and the threat coming out of the tribal areas is now a threat to the health and well-being and identity of Pakistan," Hayden said. "Pakistan's capacity to do some of the things we both would like to see happen in the tribal areas is limited." McConnell expressed deep concern about a future nuclear threat from Iran, and cautioned against misreading the recent National Intelligence Estimate that said Iran has halted the design and creation of a nuclear weapon."We remain concerned about Iran as a potential nuclear weapons threat," he said. "The earliest possible date Iran could technically be capable of producing enough fissile material for a weapon is late 2009, but we judge that to be unlikely. If Iran's nuclear weapons design program has already been reactivated or will be reactivated, it will be a closely guarded secret in an attempt to keep us from being aware of its true status." The intelligence chief also warned that North Korea may not be intending to keep its promise to suspend nuclear weapons programs. He was blunt in regard to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, declaring his policies "damaging to the Venezuelan oil industry and its economy."

What I got out of it???

There was more or le

CHRISISALL

Monday, May 5, 2008 1:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
"Hey we got what we think are high value guys! Let's drown 'em a little bit and see what they say!

Precisely. I believe you nailed it Signy. They probably HOPED they'd get some hero-making intel from them- maybe even expected to, but not so much. That whole load of s**t above is just a wordy way of saying "What they told us makes us conjure that maybe there's more STUFF gonna happen." Very informative. They could have gotten the same info by givin' those boys a few beers.
Idiots.
Idiots we pay, too.

GRRRRRChrisisall

CANTTAKESKY

Monday, May 5, 2008 2:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by walkerhound:
a. interrogation works. (people like to believe other wise but....it's just not true).

Nobody is against interrogation here.

Quote:

b. torture is another way of saying: "method of interrogation we won't use"

Yeah, cause you know, some methods of interrogation work better than others. Some methods are very effective, while others are not reliable. You abandon the methods that don't work so well, which are moreover immoral. It's a cost-benefit thing. It costs us our moral integrity and humanity, not to mention our time and efforts, and it doesn't give us a lot back for it.

Here is an article explaining why torture is a poor method for interrogation.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/

The Jack Bauer scenario is a myth perpetuated by media entertainment.
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/primetime/project.asp

Quote:
i'm almost temped to ask what some of you would consider "acceptable" methods to extract information?

Methods that do not involve dehumanization of the "asset." Spy on them, bug them, trick them into telling you shit, talk to their friends, spy on their friends, etc. There is an entire repertoire of spy techniques that are very well established. It is hard work, but they yield better, corroborated results.

Here is an example of why the govt cannot sanction the use of torture, even in limited settings with controls.

Quote:
For example, the Israeli government legalized "moderate physical pressure," with controls to limit its use. However, once permitted, thousands of "suspects" were tortured for stone-throwing and other routine offenses, and the practice became routine and systematic. Even though the Israeli High Court banned the practice in 1999, Amnesty International continues to document Israeli authorities' use of torture.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/askamnesty/torture200112.html

We don't need to go there.

Edited to add links:
http://www.livescience.com/history/071019-torture-history.html
http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/050725_innocent_confess.html

--------------------------
Torture does not work. We know from working with victims that torture is an ineffective way to gather information. Nearly all our clients, when subjected to torture, confessed to a crime they did not commit, gave up extraneous information, or supplied names of innocent friends or colleagues. This is a great source of shame for our clients, who tell usthey would have said anything to get the pain to stop.
--Center for Victims of Torture
http://www.cvt.org/file.php?ID=5575

Anybody with real combat experience understands that torture is counterproductive.
--F. Andy Messing, retired major U.S. Special Forces and director of the National Defense Council, Insight magazine

AURAPTOR

Monday, May 5, 2008 5:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You're the one who keeps it relevant, by posting the same evil fascist wannabe terrorist cowardly crap .

You're the terrorist loving appeaser to those who saw heads off of innocent men, women and children. You side with monsters. I side w/ the champions and defenders of freedom.

Quote:
You're the one who keeps saying, "I win, You lose" over and over again, stop forcing your own idiocy and insecurities on me.

You keep displaying your own insecurities for all to see, and then trying heap them all onto me. But, as usual, you fail at that as well.

Quote:
]Not really, since you made it up like the troll you are. I don't think you're a figment of my imagination, shit for brains, I know you're a figment of someone else's. There's a lot of evidence to that end, for instance its plain and clear you are too stupid to understand English, switch on a computer, use a keyboard etc, but you're managing to just about do these things because your puppet master does them. Says a hell of a lot about you, doesn't it.

Does your therapist instruct you to make up such fairy tales. Does this silly, rambling construct of yours make it easier to get through the day ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Monday, May 5, 2008 5:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I side w/ the champions and defenders of freedom.

I'm sorry, I keep getting this image of a guy at the NSA who hates his job, in front of a computer with time to kill, so he pretends to be this "AURaptor" character...he intentionally goes way over the top with references to facts that don't exist, or ones that serve his "character's" purposes which, as far as I can tell, is to lampoon such sheepish following of the governmental status quo.
I'd say it has been quite successful too.

Cover-blowin' Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Monday, May 5, 2008 5:12 PM

Quote:
You're the terrorist loving appeaser to those who saw heads off of innocent men, women and children. You side with monsters. I side w/ the champions and defenders of freedom....

Who torture and kill in the name of freedom!

Rap, I just don't understand how you paper that over. Shouting huzzahs doesn't make you right.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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