Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications
POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 01:32
VIEWED: 23329
PAGE 19 of 28
Bump for Frem
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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I'm not ignoring a damn thing, other than the flat lies and distortions the State has offered us till I see real evidence of their claims.
You know, like that "Sarah" and her phone call.
Azar may be a smoother front than Van Deusen, but it's the same game, Siggy.
Two, repeat TWO, confirmed pregnancies and one test refusal.
One of them admitted by the State to be of legal age.
That is ALL THEY HAVE - call em yourself and ask THEM, if you do not believe me.
The statement as given is a flat out lie.
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9056589
"An attorney for FLDS families in Texas challenged the state's allegations of a "pervasive pattern" of underage girls having children, saying the state's own documents show just three teenagers in custody are pregnant.
Of those girls, one will turn 18 in a few months and another merely refused to take a pregnancy test, said Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney representing families at the YFZ Ranch. "That leaves us with one," he said.
Parker also said Friday that one state document includes a woman whose first child was born more than a decade ago. He said he based his statements on a copy of a list created by an investigator for Texas Child Protective Services. "I challenge CPS to come forward with the pregnant minors," said Parker"
"One CPS document reviewed by The Salt Lake Tribune lists just three pregnant teenagers. The court document, also reviewed by The Tribune, includes women who became mothers before the FLDS' move to Texas or before the state raised the age of marriage, with parents' permission, from 14 to 16 in 2005. The chart does not indicate whether the women are legally married or the ages of the children's fathers.
Among them: One woman, now 30, listed as having given birth to her first child in 1993 when she was 14."
Three - when they claimed thirty.
Add to that they're claiming some of these girls to be underage when they have a State issued birth certificate stating otherwise - how do you reconcile that ?
And you know...
They got that count by including girls who had children at those ages when it was LEGAL (however repulsive, ick!) to do so, and unless I am mistaken, you can NOT apply a law passed in 2005 to an action that happened in 1993.
As in, a lot of those girls are not teens now, but they couched the statement to give a certain impression and invoke outrage from the gullible.
A lotta that, going around over this.
And the State's burden of "proof" ? you're gonna love this.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9091635
"Two attorneys with Texas RioGrande Legal Aid (TRLA), which represents 48 mothers, challenged the "eyeball" test CPS used to separate minors from adults.
"My clients told us they were put in a line and looked at," said Julie Balovich."
Oh yeah, there's a reliable inspection that'll hold up in court, innit ?
"Amanda Chisholm, who also works for TRLA, said she would be surprised if the actual number of teenage girls who are pregnant or mothers is "anywhere near that high."
"Until we can get numbers of how many of these women dispute the age CPS is attributing to them I wouldn't rely on any of the figures that [the state] gives out," Chisholm said.
TRLA attorney Julie Balovich said one woman now deemed to be a teenager is a 24-year-old woman who is pregnant. FLDS member Willie Jessop contends the state's tally also includes a 28-year-old whom the state has listed as being 17.
"Do we correct it and get out the girls who are overage when the minute they do that, they forfeit their children?" he asked. "CPS has had a very difficult time being accurate with any of the numbers and this number is the most outrageous yet."
I don't have any photos to go on, but somebody is lying here, Siggy, and based on the evidence in front of me, I wouldn't take either one's word for it without confirmation, but when the State is trying to sell me the story that a girl with State issued birth certificate in hand saying otherwise, is underage
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You're conflating issues, Frem.
AFA the rest: You talk about PREGNANT teenagers. In other words, the number of teenagers who happen to be pregnant at the time. However there could be a much higher number of teenagers who HAD BEEN pregnant. As Rue pointed out, pregnancy leaves permanent physical changes that can be easily found by examination. You're so effing biased you couldn't even figure out that distinction?
Quote:I think Rue had some good questions about the provenance of those certificates and quite frankly I haven't had the chance to look into it.
a girl with State issued birth certificate in hand saying otherwise, is underage
So climb down from your pillar of indignation, screw your head back on straight, and lets' see what the evidence shows.
In the meantime, interested persons should, and are, keeping pressure on the State to make sure that none of the kids gets "lost".
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From AP Wire...CPS Spokeman Darrell Azar said today that of the 53 girls between 14-17 years old...31 are pregnant, or have been pregnant.
Sounds like a lot of statutory rape cases to me. Now to test all the males' DNA to determine the guilty ones. This is the only evidence; no one there will testify in that culture of submission, fear and abuse.
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Being one of the folks trying to make sure none of the kids gets "lost", I am well aware of that.
And also well aware of that distinction - and the fact that they deliberately distorted it.
AT THIS TIME - 3 pregnancies, 1 of age, 1 underage, and 1 test refusal.
But that is not what they told the press, which then parroted it obediently in many cases.
HAD BEEN PREGNANT - whole new can of worms, that, there's the whole time frame factor, and as you say former pregnancy can be detected, I am not a doctor and my knowledge of anatomy is devoted to putting people on a slab, not an operating table so I don't have any knowledge, but common sense says that is likely.
But there's the issue of the law before and after 2005, when these pregnancies were, and the girls ages at the time to be called into question and examined before running off to the media and making what amounts to false statements.
You keep callin bias, but it wasn't me advocating breaking the law and pissing on the constitution to nail these guys, and it sure ain't me trying to whip up a feeding frenzy in the press with a statement that was demonstrably false.
I have my own questions about the certs, like as in do they really belong to the ones holding them, which is a good place to start with verification, but physically they passed inspection as the real deal, that much I will say.
And this is the last time I will take insult from you without slinging back, my patience with your petty slams is at it's end and I got enough on my plate without having to concern myself with being polite to you.
I want *evidence*, and all the State has offered so far has been half-truths, distortions and outright lies, and that ain't good enough.
I rather doubt FLDS has been fully honest or forthcoming either, but not once have my contacts tried to lie to me as yet (although I think we both know they sure as HELL ain't tellin the whole story..) so there you have it.
In the absence of evidence, I am not inclined to believe neither one, but I tend to take a real dim view of witch hunts in general.
-F
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I've been a little reluctant to respond to this conversation. Mainly, because both sides of the argument have been presented so well.
While I disagree with tactics often used by the authorities in cases like Ruby Ridge, Waco and now Eldorado, there are times when special circumstances leave little choice but to act in order to protect the innocent, (or enforce the law).
Did the state of Texas do the right thing in separating these children from their families? This, to me, is a very difficult question. On one hand, these people at Yearn for Zion Ranch were living the only way they could according to the spiritual teachings of their religion, regardless of how it is viewed in today's society.
Were the girls willing participants in the Sister/Wife dogma of their church? It seems that they were indoctrinated into that lifestyle at an early age and therefore were aware of what was to be expected of them.
A tenet of the Mormon religion.
Quote:
Eternal Marriage is essential for exaltation. A key element of Mormon doctrine and the foundation for exaltation in the highest heaven is celestial marriage. Exaltation is the primary goal for each Mormon to achieve. To understand the Latter-Day Saints' desire to enter into an eternal marriage it is important to understand the term "exaltation."
William Clayton, Hyrum Smith's clerk, was present when Joseph Smith first announced the revelation regarding plural and celestial marriage. Clayton wrote that from Joseph he "learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on earth, and that without obedience to that principle no man can ever attain to the fullness of exaltation in celestial glory."{33}
This revelation was first given publicly at Nauvoo, Illinois, July 12, 1843. In May of that year Joseph revealed that "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and if he does not, he cannot obtain it."{34} Joseph goes on to reveal that "if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned."{35}
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/mormon2.html
Without a full understanding of the FLDS ideology, the outside world must see these people as nothing more than a lunatic fringe of a larger, more suitable religion.
With that being said, does the church, any church, have the right to break the laws set forth in the land they occupy? Can they expect to be exempt from man's laws on the basis of religious belief? If statutory rape and polygamy (according to the law), did occur in this case, the authorities have little choice than to take the (presumed) guilty parties into a court of law to determine the consequences of their actions.
There are plenty of laws on the books that I, personally, do not agree with, and I have probably broken my share of the victimless crime laws out there (haven't been caught yet), but as they say, "The Law is The Law'.... and it seems to be the only thing that we have that let's us function peaceably, to some degree, in this wacky world.
So, all of the above is pretty much just my opinion, and as such contributes very little to this 'argument', but just an observation of the proceedings so far - the lack of emotion on the part of some of the mothers, and what few other members of this group I've seen, is a little disturbing.
Their calm demeanor in the face of what, to most people, would be a truly horrifying situation, is a little strange, to say the least. Granted, what the local news outlets offer for 'News' is extremely poor, and I simply may not have gotten the real picture.
I doubt that what has happened at that west Texas ranch will change things for the true believers of the FLDS - they may pack up and move elsewhere, but as long as there are those who choose this path in life, the laws of their god will supersede the laws of man.
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Quote:Of course not.
With that being said, does the church, any church, have the right to break the laws set forth in the land they occupy
I might agree with a particular religion more than a particular government... particularly if a liberal religion existed in a tyrranical theocracy... but to claim that religions have some sort of inherent "right" to break the laws of the land is foolish.
In the case of the USA which is a secular democracy, if people didn't like a particular law and they got off their rumps they could change it. Our government has avenues for questioning and change (even if the population is too stupid or lazy to avail themselves of it) unlike religions.
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I dunno, I guess you could say religions do too, given how FLDS was formed in the first place, mind...
That being said, I do believe we're all on the same page as far as violations of the law go.
I just wanna see some verifiable evidence before we go punishing folk, and I would see them tried for their crimes, as individuals, not their beliefs, collectively.
Collective punishment is the act of a tyranny.
So we're stuck waiting on the evidence, and lets hope they're using a lab with a good solid crew instead of the slipshod bunglers we have up here.
Not so much to do at this point but hold a cattle prod to the State for a full accounting of these kids, which is coming, by bits and pieces - at least some of the girls weren't dumped off, but have been routed to a Baptist run emergency facility, which should be a little less traumatic and offers the possibility of counselling if a program can be worked up and implemented quickly.
Poor girls have been through enough as it is, we really need a light touch here to avoid making social timebombs, if you know what I mean.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
- at least some of the girls weren't dumped off, but have been routed to a Baptist run emergency facility...
as well as a Methodist school in, oddly enough, Waco, Texas...
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I would just like to post an article or two here...
Link- http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/09/14/jeffs.trial/index.html
Article-
Child bride testifies against polygamist 'prophet'Story Highlights
Reluctant child bride takes the stand at Warren Jeffs trial
Jeffs, 51, is charged with rape by accomplice
Jeffs allegedly told teen she risked salvation if she refused union with cousin
He leads the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
ST. GEORGE, Utah (CNN) -- A reluctant child bride told a Utah jury Thursday that she was trying to preserve her eternal salvation when she obeyed a command by polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs to marry her cousin at age 14.
Warren Jeffs consults with one of his attorneys, Tara Isaacson, on the first day of his trial.
1 of 2 Referred to in court as Jane Doe, the young woman was married in a 2001 religious ceremony to the cousin, then 19. She said she disliked him because he once had sprayed her with a water hose on a freezing day.
"I preferred to stay away from him," she stated.
She told the jury she was given less than a week's notice that she was to be married.
She found out when the groom-to-be sat next to her at a family gathering, a level of intimacy not permitted among young unmarried people, she testified. She wrote in her journal: "Many things happened this weekend to make my world go upside down."
On her wedding day, she left the girlish bedroom she shared with a sister and returned to find it redecorated, a queen bed taking the place of the twin beds.
Despite her reservations about her new husband, she said, she then tried to follow Jeffs' counsel to submit to him "mind, body and soul."
Jeffs, 51, who leads the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is charged with two counts of rape as an accomplice for using his church authority to coerce the unwilling girl into marriage.
About two dozen followers, mostly men in Western-cut suits, crowded into the courtroom, about 50 miles from the sect's base in the twin border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona.
While they slowly rose from their seats as ordered when Judge James Shumate entered the courtroom, the followers popped up unbidden when a shackled Jeffs was brought in. Watch as the trial gets under way »
A jury of seven women and five men is hearing the case. Testimony began late Thursday afternoon, and Jane Doe was the first witness. Dressed in a business-like skirt and jacket, she took the stand for about an hour and returned Friday morning.
Her testimony provided a snapshot of a childhood spent in the sect, also known as the FLDS. It splintered from the Mormon church more than a century ago over the practice of polygamy; the Mormon church now repudiates it.
Regarding Jeffs, she said, "I've known him since my earliest years." Jeffs, she added, taught at Alta Academy, which she attended from the first through sixth grades. Jeffs later became headmaster at the FLDS-based school in Salt Lake City.
As she grew up, tapes of Jeffs' 1990s lessons and sermons were played constantly on her family's home stereo or on her portable cassette player, she said. Four of those tapes were played Thursday for the jury. Hear the words of the prophet (Caution: Content may be offensive) »
Teens are pressured to avoid the opposite sex or face being considered "damaged product," she said. "You were taught before you married you treat the boys and boys treat the girls as though they were snakes."
Girls were counseled to obey their husbands, who were their ticket to heaven. "Give yourself to him," one tape said, "Be obedient to the principle" [of polygamy]. Another directed, "Be committed and do as directed as a 'keep sweet' attitude.'
Yet another tape, dated March 13, 1998, states that young women should pretend there is a wall of bars between them and the opposite sex. "That one man, your husband -- do the opposite," Jeffs lectures. "When you marry, let the bars drop."
The girl first had sex with her cousin about two months after the
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