MLK assassinated 40 years ago today

POSTED BY: Skywalken
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 03:01
VIEWED: 7194
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HERO

Friday, April 4, 2008 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
But what I don't agree with is the fact that you seem to be assuming if a certain group of characteristics are true about one group of black people, it must apply to every black person.

Barrack Obama expressed himself on behalf of the entire black community and certainly represents a vast majority of them. Given that circumstance I have every right to respond to him and them in that same context.

Again, if you feel you were unfairly lumped in with them then your argument is with them, not me. It is your repsonsibility to make the distinctions in this case, not mine.

There are exceptions to every rule, that does not make discussion of the rule invalid, nor does it require a person to qualify each exception in the midst of the discussion.

At some point you must take responsibility for your place in your community, even if your place turns out to be at odds with most of the others.

H

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, April 4, 2008 4:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Barrack Obama expressed himself on behalf of the entire black community and certainly represents a vast majority of them. Given that circumstance I have every right to respond to him and them in that same context.

Again, if you feel you were unfairly lumped in with them then your argument is with them, not me. It is your repsonsibility to make the distinctions in this case, not mine.

There are exceptions to every rule, that does not make discussion of the rule invalid, nor does it require a person to qualify each exception in the midst of the discussion.

At some point you must take responsibility for your place in your community, even if your place turns out to be at odds with most of the others.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but you seem to be stating that because you have a certain viewpoint that represents a certain amount of a very large group of people, that it applies to everyone because it's not up to you to make individual distinctions. I'm not saying you have to consider every single person that this particular discussion effects, merely to acknowledge that your opinion is not representative of every black person.

Your (as well as Obama's and his preacher's) opinion about a black community is subjective. What one black person considers to be their definition of "the black community" may well be very different than that of another person's. How is it logical to think of every single person in a particular group as having the same exact opinion? That's condemning all of those people for crimes they may not have committed.

**************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

FINEHAT

Friday, April 4, 2008 4:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
But what I don't agree with is the fact that you seem to be assuming if a certain group of characteristics are true about one group of black people, it must apply to every black person.

Barrack Obama expressed himself on behalf of the entire black community and certainly represents a vast majority of them. Given that circumstance I have every right to respond to him and them in that same context.

Again, if you feel you were unfairly lumped in with them then your argument is with them, not me. It is your repsonsibility to make the distinctions in this case, not mine.

There are exceptions to every rule, that does not make discussion of the rule invalid, nor does it require a person to qualify each exception in the midst of the discussion.

At some point you must take responsibility for your place in your community, even if your place turns out to be at odds with most of the others.
H

You know, Hero, the problem I have is that you keep referring to "us and them". George Bush doesn't speak for me just because I'm white. So, why would Obama speak for Deepgirl just because she's black?

Another thing that isn't helping matters is your total lack of personal responsibility. Take responsibility for your own opinions, don't blame them on what you heard from some guy on the TV.

***************************

I know your name, jackass.

JRC

Friday, April 4, 2008 4:32 PM

I still say that there really is only one person responsible for King's murder. Bush!! I don't care if he was only 20-or-so years old.

Everyone dies alone.

STORYMARK

Friday, April 4, 2008 5:11 PM

Christ, it only took Hero one post to turn this into a race debate. Bravo, ass.

Every time I start to think that, differences aside, you seem like a decent cat, you prove to be a total cock.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

HERO

Friday, April 4, 2008 5:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Your (as well as Obama's and his preacher's) opinion about a black community is subjective.

First of all its opinion and by nature subjective, it is also legitimate commentary.

You seem to have no real disagreement with the substance of my ideas, but rather the sum of them in the sense that you don't think that they apply to you or the entire black community. I disagree.

I don't know you, I do know as much of the black community as I can both through personal experiance and the way they portray themselves through their chosen leaders. In that sense you must and have made your voice heard. Thank you, exception noted, however I STILL think my opinion applies to you even if you choose to reject it (as is your right).

I understand how you feel, I'm a lawyer. Now admit it, when you read "I'm a lawyer" you have a negative reaction. Most people do and lawyer jokes are funny. There are a lot of bad lawyers and the legal community deserves the critisism it gets. But I know some really good lawyers, the kind of folks who live up to the noble tradition that our field has despite our bad reputation. I consider myself a part of that smaller group, mainly because justice is my first and last concern for every case (except involving PirateNews...but thats special). I know what critisism belongs to me and what does not, but I recognize that the community deserves the rightful critisism even if I do not. For that I blame the community and my role to advocate the change we need.

So yes, I am lumping you in with them, not intentionally, but because I am talking about them in general and in general you are as much a part of them as anyone.

H

HERO

Friday, April 4, 2008 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FineHat:
You know, Hero, the problem I have is that you keep referring to "us and them". George Bush doesn't speak for me just because I'm white. So, why would Obama speak for Deepgirl just because she's black?

Your Bush example is false because Bush does not claim to speak for all white people. Obama spoke on behalf the black community which semantically at least may not apply to all black people.

Bush does claim, correctly, to speak on behalf of all Americans. He can do this because of his position and despite the fact that many, even perhaps a majority, claim to disagree with him.

I would suggest that Obama does speak for her, unless she says he does not. Its her duty to divorce herself from the community he claims to speak for. I don't think she can, but she can try, either way though its an issue between her and them, not her and myself.

H

HERO

Friday, April 4, 2008 5:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Christ, it only took Hero one post to turn this into a race debate. Bravo, ass.

I would suggest that the debate was already here, even before I commented. Besides I didn't challenge anyone, just expressed my hopes for the black community, it was others who decided to take issue with the nature of the black community, which is not something I defined or a term I invented.

H

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, April 4, 2008 6:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I don't know you, I do know as much of the black community as I can both through personal experience and the way they portray themselves through their chosen leaders. In that sense you must and have made your voice heard. Thank you, exception noted, however I STILL think my opinion applies to you even if you choose to reject it (as is your right).

I understand how you feel, I'm a lawyer. Now admit it, when you read "I'm a lawyer" you have a negative reaction. Most people do and lawyer jokes are funny. There are a lot of bad lawyers and the legal community deserves the criticism it gets. But I know some really good lawyers, the kind of folks who live up to the noble tradition that our field has despite our bad reputation. I consider myself a part of that smaller group, mainly because justice is my first and last concern for every case (except involving PirateNews...but thats special). I know what criticism belongs to me and what does not, but I recognize that the community deserves the rightful criticism even if I do not. For that I blame the community and my role to advocate the change we need.

So yes, I am lumping you in with them, not intentionally, but because I am talking about them in general and in general you are as much a part of them as anyone.

You're still talking as if this idea of the black community is a fact. Your perception of the black community is just that, your perception (and for that matter, Obama's as well). Because you seem content to buy into this fictional idea, I get to be lumped in with people that have some faulty (if not downright stupid) logic about race.

If every black person alive deserves the same amount of criticism because of the actions and words of a few, then you had better start applying that same yardstick to every other group on the planet (which you may very well do to begin with). And that would be sad, because that kind of thinking does a hell of a lot to hurt race relations.

If you really want a good outcome for black people (and for that matter, every person) as you claim, the first step might include becoming willing to see more than just a distorted perception of them.

And with that, I'll be taking a break for a little while. My arguing faculties are getting more than a little worn out.

**************************************************

"This is my timey-wimey detector. It goes ding when there's stuff. Also, it can boil an egg at 30 paces, whether you want it to or not, actually, so I've learned to stay away from hens. It's not pretty when they blow."

RIGHTEOUS9

Friday, April 4, 2008 7:06 PM

Probably the most damning thing about any of the comments to this thread about whether or not we are still a racist nation that treats blacks unjustly, is the inability of most of you to acknowledge any type of widespread racism still inflicting the black community. You prove your racially charged biases with your inability to see what's right in front of your face, and your inability to take King's message as something that we should strive for as a people, not just black or white, and that our whole country has fallen down on that message in a big way, is dissapointing.

Its a fucking tragedy how the white people on here want to tell blacks how they should be, how they are failing. As a white person who lives in the California Bay Area no less, few days go by where I don't hear something biggoted coming out of a white person's mouth about black people, and I expect with great certainty that any white person who claims racism is not a problem that we are a great part of is not being genuine, or else his thought is so bent that the racism around him sounds more like white noise.

Jong, seriously? That's your contribution to the thread? Because its the black leaders who have the only stake here? You don't notice a general movement on the other side? You don't think the "accidental" but constant slip of pundits calling Obama "Osama", or the egregious emphasis on his middle name is evidence that there is an interest by the powers that be to foster xenophobia in this country? you don't think that trying to conflate things that reverend Wright said with not only his own racism but with Obamas is an appeal to the race card? You don't think its being used because finally people who have been nervous about voting in a black person can say...."hallelujah, he's a racist, and I ain't voting for no white hater."

It's just fucking hilarious and sad to me that they have been able to get such miliage out of the Reverend Wright thing. Nothing he said was racist...it just wasn't. Some of it was fringe, some of it, like "whites being in power" was factual, but it doesn't matter to people that he has defended gays in his sermons, and it doesn't matter that he has defended white women and talked about their plight...what people hear and parrot is that he is a racist, because in the end, that's what they want to hear.

You want racism? Lets look at Pat Buchanon's essay "A Brief for Whitey" on Obama's speech.

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/PatrickJBuchanan/2008/03/21/a_brief
_for_whitey?page=full&comments=true

And just so this doesn't get overlooked as white noise, I'll pull it out for you here.

"First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known. "

Now read the frikken comments to his thread and tell me there isn't an existing problem in America when whites can't see white racism, even when it is typed out in black and white.

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