You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???

POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, March 31, 2008 01:30
VIEWED: 12781
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FLETCH2

Saturday, March 29, 2008 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well, we appear to have two different views of the past, each expressed by some people at different times, perhaps as a matter of convenience of argument.

One is this - you have to learn from the past or you may end up repeating it, like a grade in school.

The other is this - forget the past ! It's over !

Anyone care to resolve this apparent contradiction ?
"

No contradiction. The past should inform our actions not rule them. For example-

Good -- "History shows us that feuds between neighbors often escalate out of control. It would be a good idea to ensure the party's seek third party arbitration before there is bloodshed."

Bad -- "Felix Hatfield, 120 years ago your great grandpappy killed mine you bastard! Now I'm agonna kill you to recover the McCoy family honor (bang, bang)"

The only "debts" I owe as an individual are the ones I run up in my lifetime, I am not responsible for the actions or inactions of my forebears good or bad. Any argument based on the theory of some kind of "original sin" is bogus on that basis.

CITIZEN

Saturday, March 29, 2008 11:01 PM

Wow, Obama, big troubles. Not only is his Christian minister some sort of Nazi, but he's secretly a Muslim and has a name that sounds like Osama.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

RUE

Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:44 AM

"You’re the one insisting upon the age old mistake of punishing the son’s for the sins of the fathers or grandfathers or great great great great great grandfathers."

What you are saying here is it's the other generations that discriminate, not yours. Clearly you are saying it's in the past. Now maybe you mistated your ideas, so perhaps you can tell us all up front whether you believe discrimination, by name, still exists, or did every vestige die when your generation was born ? (An impposibility as your father's generation - still being alive - would carry it forward in their own lives. But for the sake of argument let's go along with the notion.)

"no doors have ever opened automatically for me, and that is the truth"

Really ? Not even in the military which has policies and practices of discrimination, sometimes even severe ones ? BTW that's the problem of not being discrimianted against. You don't have the wit to see what doesn't impact you personally. So in your mind, it's not there.

The other thing you need to do is point out where I advocate punishing. Anywhere ? Or is this a figment of your imagination as well ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RUE

Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:55 AM

"You’re the one insisting upon the age old mistake of punishing the son’s for the sins of the fathers or grandfathers or great great great great great grandfathers."

What you are saying here is it's the other generations that discriminate, not yours. Clearly you are saying it's in the past. Now maybe you misstated your ideas, so perhaps you can tell us all up front whether you believe discrimination, by name, still exists, or did every vestige miraculously die when your generation was born ? (An impossibility as your father's generation - still being alive - would carry it forward in their own lives. But for the sake of argument let's go along with the notion.)

"no doors have ever opened automatically for me, and that is the truth"

Really ? Not even in the military which has policies and practices of discrimination, sometimes even severe ones ? BTW that's the problem of not being discriminated against. If you don't have the wit to see what doesn't impact you personally, in your mind, it's not there.

The other thing you need to do is point out where I advocate punishing. Anywhere ? Or is this a figment of your imagination as well ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RIVERLOVE

Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:12 AM

Obama's Cabinet :
Sec. of Defense : Rev. Wright
Sec. of Treasury : Rev. Sharpton
Sec. of State : Rev. Farrakhan
Nat'l. Security Advisor : Danny Glover
Sec. of Homeland Security : Harry Belafonte
Sec. of Interior : Tookie Wilson
Chief of Staff : Mahmoud "Bucky" Achmindenijhad
Press Secretary : Hugo "El Hombre De Tu Suenos" Chavez
Surgeon General : Dr. Phil

Yep, Jan. 20, 2009...Meet the new America.

RUE

Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:34 AM

Seriously, why on earth did you post this ? Is it supposed to be funny ? Did you want to demonstrate how ignorant and crude you are ? Were you trying to show off how many names of black people and extremeists you could post ? Please explain the contribution your post made to us all. Thank you.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

AURAPTOR

Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Seriously, why on earth did you post this ? Is it supposed to be funny ? Did you want to demonstrate how ignorant and crude you are ? Were you trying to show off how many names of black people and extremeists you could post ? Please explain the contribution your post made to us all. Thank you.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not a fact, it's a scam "

Lighten up, Francis.

It's clearly suppose to be funny, and no one needs to explain anything to you if they don't want.

( I wasn't aware that Dr. Phil is a 'black person'.

)

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RIGHTEOUS9

Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:09 PM

Some of the conversations in this thread make me think of a large question i've been pondering about the difference between conservative and liberal thought on issues of "learned" versus "inherent" behavior.

Right off the bat, I think its hard for anybody to contend that there is not a racial divide in this country along the lines of economics. Blacks make less money on average than whites do. Also, More blacks are imprisoned per capita, than whites are.

What makes me think about this, is that there are many people making the point that they did not own slaves, they have never discriminated, and therefore they don't owe anybody anything, and need to take responsibility for nothing that happened before them.

The question this poses is what these same people make of today's numbers. they have decided that there is no large scale racism afflicting the black community to this day. I assume they have decided that everybody is equally free to make the right choices in life...everybody inherently knows right from wrong, good from evil, and can succeed if they are smart enough and motivated enough, except for those "unfair" programs like affirmative action...etc.

so then, those of you looking at things like this...the boot-strap model...etc. Is it your findings then, that black people are on an average, more evil than white people? Less capable than white people? Lazier than white people? Inherently?

Because if it isn't inherent, if it is a social malaise, caused by faulty programs and low expectations that you would contend foster such behavior, and if that is what has created this divide, then you also have to accept that these people have been led down a road either by "bad leaders" of their communities, and then I'd ask what makes them less capable of picking "good leaders" in your minds, or else by ill intentioned "liberals" who have tried hard to cottle them and make them feel entitled,...

and if that's the case, you would be accepting a socialization effect that has inflicted a whole community, which then has truly not gotten a fair shake in society even to this day.

You would also be accepting that right and wrong are not inherent, but learned, and with that acceptance, you would have to look at prisons as institutions punishing people who had no other road, or very few roads to choose from. At some point you would have to accept that the condition of the black community is predicated on the state and society's role in it as a whole, even if you and I disagreed with what exactly was wrong with society's hand in it.

Which brings me back to whether or not we as a people are responsible for our black brethren. We may not be responsible for slavery, but we are responsible for the current conditions of the black experience no less so than they are, and we are responsible for the effects that a dissillusioned chunk of our society has on the whole.

Because, if we are going to contend, as I do, that people are people, then we have to accept that blacks have had a vastly different experience than we have in this nation, up and to this day, and that it is that vastly diffferent experience that has yielded such staggeringly different results.

If you aren't willing to accept that, then maybe you believe that people are "good" or "bad" from the get go, "motivated" or "lazy" as doled out by God at conception, but then please clarify to yourself what that means in terms of your view of races as a whole...because they aren't doing equally. Put more directly....do you have a preconceived notion of blacks or people of other races, based on statistics of successes and failures of those races in this nation?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
What you are saying here is it's the other generations that discriminate, not yours. Clearly you are saying it's in the past. Now maybe you mistated your ideas, so perhaps you can tell us all up front whether you believe discrimination, by name, still exists, or did every vestige die when your generation was born ? (An impposibility as your father's generation - still being alive - would carry it forward in their own lives. But for the sake of argument let's go along with the notion.)

I never said discrimination didn’t exist. I said white men are not the only ones responsible and they aren’t free from its influences. What you want to do is created a class of people for whom you can blame all the world’s problems on. You’re pointing a finger at a group of people differentiated only by the color of their skin and their gender, and saying these people should be hated because they are free from all the world’s ills and cause everyone else problems. As I said, what you’re doing is not different in nature then anti-Semitism or racism or misogyny - it’s chauvinist and racist.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Really ? Not even in the military which has policies and practices of discrimination, sometimes even severe ones ? BTW that's the problem of not being discrimianted against. You don't have the wit to see what doesn't impact you personally. So in your mind, it's not there.

According to your own post, most of it hasn’t been their since the 70s. And I was drawing dinosaurs and wearing Luke Skywalker underwear in the 70s. So once again, imaginary.

So far the only discrimination in the military you’ve come up with is that we don’t allow women on the front line, and even if we did, women still wouldn’t be on the front line. You seem to be very ignorant about military affairs, so let me explain it. Most men in the military aren‘t on the front line. And the men we do allow have finished training programs that prepare them for combat; programs that, in most cases, 99.5% of women in the US probably couldn’t pass anyway, but for every woman we allow into Ranger School, for instance, that’s one less man who might actually have a chance to pass it. One less soldier we might have on the front line. So maybe you’d like us to give women a pass - give them a handicap, like affirmative action - so that they can pass Ranger School and go to the Front line totally unprepared and get killed - in the process fail to support their team and get others killed. I’m against that, but that has nothing to do with chauvinism, because I’m not for sending anyone, man or woman, to the front line who isn’t prepared for combat.

Another point of misunderstanding that you seem to have is the idea of “front line.” The fact is that women ARE on the front line. We simply don’t allow women to be in offensive units whose duty it is to close on the enemy - that is approach the enemy on ground, engage and kill them.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KIRKULES

Monday, March 31, 2008 1:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

Because, if we are going to contend, as I do, that people are people, then we have to accept that blacks have had a vastly different experience than we have in this nation, up and to this day, and that it is that vastly diffferent experience that has yielded such staggeringly different results.

Great post, I think you summed up the situation we now face very well. The only problem I see is were whites can do anything to help the problem. You mention income disparity, but the problem with income data is it doesn't compare "apples with apples". There is no question that blacks on average earn less than whites, but so what. College educated black women earn more the equally educated white women. The issue isn't income disparity its social disparity. Black society has chosen to embrace out of wedlock childbirth, rap music the glorifies crime, and getting a good education is "acting white". When black leaders try to bring up problems with black society they are chastised by the comunity for critizicing blacks, a white saying the same thing is called a racist. The time is long past that whites can do anything to help the black comunity, it's time the did it for themselves. There are opportunities out there for blacks that are willing to get an education and learn to conform to society some what. It's not white society that they need to conform to, it's American society which is a mixture of cultures and races from the entire earth. As long as blacks choose to live in a society separate from the mainstream there's nothing whites can do to help their situation that won't get us called racists. The only thing we can do is what many of us have done our entire lives, that is treat everyone as an individual.

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