Real World Event Discussions

You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???

POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, March 31, 2008 01:30
VIEWED: 12781
PAGE 12 of 13

ANTIMASON

Saturday, March 29, 2008 12:58 AM

Quote:
HK-

Hey antimason,

I was not suggesting that you shoulda read his book (topped the NY Times Best Sellers List, so a bunch of people have read it, btw). I mentioned the book to say, "The guy has even written a book about his beliefs." His beliefs are not hidden. If you cared enough to do 5 minutes of research, you could know all of his beliefs before you make comments that only express your own ignorance of the man.

HK, ive heard a number of his speeches, theyve been all over the news since before he was even a top contender. i will admit that prior to this rev. Wright thing, i didnt really care about his theological views: Obamas a socialist progressive of the Wilson/Roosevelt type, and i wouldnt vote for him; hes not even electable in my mind.

but, i guess i should pay closer attention, since the masses of lemmings might just get him into office. i didnt make this a story, the media did, so dont call me ignorant simply for reacting to it. my comment was regarding whether Obama would consider himself a 'black liberation'ist, or not; that is the controversy right? i have not heard him explicity address that, if he did show me

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And by research, I simply mean googling some speeches or visiting YouTube for his many public statements about his beliefs. Why do you insist that his beliefs are somehow obscure?

ive seen a number of his speeches and debates, besides that hes a liberal ideologue, i havent heard him make mention of his theological beliefs, other then maybe generalities about a belief in God. shame on me for not reading his book, i really didnt care.. IM NOT VOTING FOR HIM!!

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I don't think it's reasonable for you to claim that the man needs to state his beliefs up front when you haven't even been paying attention.

i guess youre right.. ya snooze ya loose. so when he takes office, and everyone i know is being taxed to death paying for global warming and one liberal program after the next... i can say "thats your fault, you could have 'simply googled', and then youd'a known you were voting for a socialist!"

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It's not just you, of course. There's this bizarre meme running around the interenet and the mainstream media that Obama is some kind of "man without a past," a "mystery man" which fits snuggly into folks conspiracy theories about him being a "muslim sleeper-cell" or some such utter horseshit.

nope, im worried because he has yet to address any real problems. hey, how about the devaluation of the currency by the illegal federal reserve? how about stopping the North American Union? what about reducing the wellfare state, so i dont get robbed every week? .. or even, just mention the constitution, other then in passing?

thats right.. nothing! hes a CFR socialist. and thats why the reverends comments were controversial

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anti- actually, his race is only an issue to the democrats, since they nominated the guy!
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More "???" from me on this one. I can't make out what you're trying to say.

i noticed people playing the race card.. i was making a quick observation: Obamas race is only an issue to collectivists, people who see others as belonging to a group(minority, gay etc). those are subjects exclusive to the democrat party, its their niche, they cater to and elicit discrimination and racism in-inadvertently. im not voting democrat, so these arent relevant issues to me(as a conservative, but especially as an individual)

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HKCAVALIER

Saturday, March 29, 2008 1:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Problem is, the FULL CONTEXT only reinforces the origial description of J. Wright. It makes him less, not more, of a sypathetic figure.

Problem is, that's not an objective statement you got there. It's your opinion and I disagree with it.

Besides, more or less "sympathetic" was never the issue. Of course you, AURaptor, are unsympathetic to him and his ideas. The issue is that his "God damn America" is not a categorical statement, but a statement in the context of American government's racist and genocidal policies. He was saying that God is the measure of what is right and wrong, not the government; and when a government goes wrong God judges that nation--pretty standard.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

RUE

Saturday, March 29, 2008 1:40 AM

"This is nonsense. No doors have ever opened automatically for me, that didn’t open automatically for anyone who stepped in front of them."

I think most people would find this absurd on the face of it.

Now before you give me a long, sad, sob-story about how you never had nuthin' and you had to pull yourself up by your bootstraps (little violin playing in the background) - remember that that's true of a lot of people here. So let me ask you - did you ever have your application refused because of your race or sex ? I have, on more than one occasion. Were you ever told that you had to be better than everyone to even consider applying ? I have, on more than one occasion.

I'm not talking about getting things handed to you, no work required, just because of your color or sex. I'm talking about not even being let into the competition because of them.

And since you think that never happens, you've obviously never had it happen to you. Which kinda' proves my point.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, March 29, 2008 1:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
i didnt make this a story, the media did, so dont call me ignorant simply for reacting to it.

Y'know, a sad thing has happened to the word "ignorant." Ya can't just use it to describe a person's lack of knowledge anymore, it comes packed with some general attack on a person's character. I was really using the word in it's outmoded meaning only--didn't mean to suggest there was anything wrong with you other than you arrogating authority when you didn't have all the facts.

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my comment was regarding whether Obama would consider himself a 'black liberation'ist, or not; that is the controversy right? i have not heard him explicity address that, if he did show me

I don't think that's the controversy, actually. I don't think most folk imagine that Obama is a black separatist. His speech last week was not the speech of a black separatist. I don't think the DNC would support a candidate who is a black separatist. I don't much think a black separatist would be running for President.

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i was making a quick observation: Obamas race is only an issue to collectivists, people who see others as belonging to a group(minority, gay etc). those are subjects exclusive to the democrat party, its their niche, they cater to and elicit discrimination and racism in-inadvertently. im not voting democrat, so these arent relevant issues to me(as a conservative, but especially as an individual)

Here's where you seem to have your cake and eat it, antimason. You want to be able to say "we conservatives" and then proclaim yourself anti-collectivist. Any time you talk along "us & them" lines, you're talking as a collectivist. When you complain about how "the secular humanists" are treating "you Christians" you're speaking as a collectivist, I'm pretty sure.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, March 29, 2008 3:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So let me ask you - did you ever have your application refused because of your race or sex ? I have, on more than one occasion.

My skin color was a major factor in getting me closed out of many things. Did you ever have your face beat in because of your skin color? I have - more then once. It’s not the funest thing to do.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Were you ever told that you had to be better than everyone to even consider applying ? I have, on more than one occasion.

Yes.

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Originally posted by rue:
I'm not talking about getting things handed to you, no work required, just because of your color or sex. I'm talking about not even being let into the competition because of them.

And since you think that never happens, you've obviously never had it happen to you. Which kinda' proves my point.

You’re problem is that you’re so committed to the lie, you don’t even realize you’re the one repeating the mistakes of history. You’re the one insisting upon the age old mistake of punishing the son’s for the sins of the fathers or grandfathers or great great great great great grandfathers. This type of thinking is not any different in nature then anti-Semitism or anti-Irish or misogyny - it may not rise to the same severity in all cases, but in nature, it’s the same thing. You’re still punishing an entire group of people for imaginary wrongs. I never owned any slaves. I never told any black person they had to go to the back of the bus. I’ve never judged a woman by her sex in the workplace, but you want to punish me for it anyway, because I’m a white male, not because of what I've done, but because of my gender and my ethnicity. Yes, I agree with you on one thing, those who will not learn from history may be doomed to repeat it.

I’m against chauvinism in all its forms. I’m against racism in all its forms. Your gender or the color of your skin or the god you pray to are irrelevant, it is the acts that are important. Someday when society learns to judge the act and not the person, then maybe we will finally stop repeating the mistakes of history. Someday.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:00 AM

"You’re still punishing an entire group of people for imaginary wrongs." Dude, get real.

For example, let's take your beloved military as an example of equal opportunity and treatment:

Women have bravely served the U.S. Navy for nearly a century, but they have only been allowed in positions aboard non-hospital ships for the last 25 years. In October 1978, in the wake of a court ruling that overturned statutes that forbade women from serving at sea, ...

The US Army is negotiating with the Pentagons civilian leaders a plan to eliminate a women-in-combat ban (2008) ...

After the Air Force announced plans to train its "first women military pilots" in the mid-1970s ...

TAILHOOK INCIDENT
1992
WHEREAS, at the Tailhook Association convention in September 1991, Navy aviators surrounded unsuspecting female guests, including 14 female Navy officers, and passed them down a gauntlet, grabbing at their breasts and buttocks, attempting to strip off their clothes, and jeering and taunting; and
WHEREAS, the publicity surrounding the Tailhook Association incident reveals an attitude of contempt toward women held by many military men and tolerated by much of the military leadership; and
WHEREAS this practice has occurred since 1986 with the knowledge of senior military leaders; and
WHEREAS, military leaders did not take the women's reports of the incident seriously and the perpetrators and others aware of the incident obstructed the investigation; and ...

Ninety percent of women under 50 who have served in the U.S. military and who responded to a survey report being victims of sexual harassment, and nearly one- third of the respondents of all ages say they have been raped.
The incidence of violent assaults among female veterans, the vast majority of whom reported at least one ``severe assault,'' is much higher than in the general population and raises questions about the treatment of women currently on active duty and the 1.2 million veterans, researchers said.

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Centuries ago ? Imaginary ? Yeah. Right.

Oh, and I'm not 'punishing' or blaming you personally, or even white males in general. But when you say such things never happen you really display an enormous ignorance.

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And now I have to go and get on with life. I'll leave you to consider how your world view could be so shockingly deficient.

PIRATEJENNY

Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:29 AM

Quote:
The point you ignore is that everybody has been "oppressed" by somebody at some point, all you have to do is go back far enough. There are places in eastern Europe where there are still grudges about wars that were fought 500 years ago, Bin Laden is hung up on a Caliphate that ceased to exist 400 years ago.

The moral is clear -- you don't dwell on the past, if you do you make yourself a victim of it. No living American benefited from the effects of slavery, no living American suffers from the effects of slavery. There are a lot of African Americans suffering from things that happen right now, like petty racism and lack of educational opportunity. Those are the things we can fix, so let's not dwell on the past. The point of history is to learn from it, not to use it to excuse behavior and not to guilt trip people who have no responsibility for what their ancestors may, or may not do.

OMG, seriously, I cannot believe you posted that, I'm amazed at the complete fantasy of what you posted, if you truly believe that.

I doubt seriously if you know more about American history then I do, especially if that post was any indication. I got your point all to well, the problem was it was the wrong point,I'm not talking about everybody, I was talking speicfically about black people in America, not Rome or Romans or anyother ethic race or culture. I'm not saying anybodys pain is any less precious. but I am talking about black Americans whoes history and experience in the USA is unique and diffrent from anyother ethnic group or race, and your trying to qualify those experiences with something completely diffrent.

your completely ignoring the facts which are black people in the USA are only 47 years removed from slavery , neo slavery and Jim Crow. it was only in the 1960's when black people in the U.S got their civil rights and some protection under the law, compared to over four hundred years of the other. your also choosing to ignore, that white privlage comes at the exspense of others and always has.

instead of coming up with these ridiculous, assine, ignorant arguments that are based in your own bias fantasy, why don't you just admit the truth!! your scared, to live in fear is degrading, but you are, your scared of Obama and what he represents. Even though this thread is about Rev Wright any little excuse even one that is blantly and historically wrong you love it, but really its about your own fears.

and I'm calling you on it!!

PIRATEJENNY

Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Aside from that, I'd like to point out that today, STILL, doors open automatically for people with white skin and xy chromosomes that don't automatically open for others. Any efforts to address that aren't necessarily out of some effort to redeem the past, but to change the present.
This is nonsense. No doors have ever opened automatically for me, that didn’t open automatically for anyone who stepped in front of them.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

You have white privilage, are trying to tell me as a white man you don't have white privlage because of your race, so far your argument is ridiculous.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Centuries ago ? Imaginary ? Yeah. Right.

Imaginary, yes. Centuries ago is something you came up with. Even slavery wasn’t “centuries ago.”

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Oh, and I'm not 'punishing' or blaming you personally, or even white males in general. But when you say such things never happen you really display an enormous ignorance.

Punishing me is exactly what you want, isn’t it? Putting the white men (read: misogynist and rapists) in their place. The ignorance here is yours, because I never said injustices didn’t happen - I never said there weren’t people out there who wouldn’t take advantage of others, sometimes with cruel intent. I never even suggested such a thing. That’s purely your imagination. What I said, is that no doors have ever opened automatically for me, and that is the truth. An inconvenient truth for those who want to associate me with rapists because of the color of my skin or my gender, but a truth, nonetheless.

FLETCH2

Saturday, March 29, 2008 8:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

instead of coming up with these ridiculous, assine, ignorant arguments that are based in your own bias fantasy, why don't you just admit the truth!! your scared, to live in fear is degrading, but you are, your scared of Obama and what he represents. Even though this thread is about Rev Wright any little excuse even one that is blantly and historically wrong you love it, but really its about your own fears.

and I'm calling you on it!!

Ok?

Jenny, what part of "not American" are you missing exactly? Is it the part where I don't actually get to vote for any of these people? Is it the part where the selection of the American President is something done by Americans and thus has nothing at all to do with me. Why would I be scared of the results of an election in a foreign country?