Loyalty to the State
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Monday, March 31, 2008 03:34
VIEWED: 19263
PAGE 21 of 27
Quote:Homeschoolers in America are far from being isolated. Of course, it depends on where one lives, and if one WANTS to be isolated. But in general, there are significant homeschooling communities everywhere. Many homeschoolers also get together to form co-ops, where they teach each other's kids in a pseudo-classroom setting.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
We (as a family) all enjoy the 'community' that schools offer to iscolate ourselves like that.
Where we used to live, our co-op met once a week. We rented an empty office building, which was partitioned into "areas." Parents volunteered to prepare and lead activities in each area, anywhere from a first-time violin lesson to geography or science. There was always an arts and crafts area and a toddler's area for the younger siblings. Many homeschooling parents there were well educated (depending again on where one lives), so there was a lot of expertise to draw from.
True, there are less people in this community than the other. But there is something to be said for quality of community as well. My kids may play with other kids less frequently, in general, but when she does play with them, the interactions are well supervised by a very small parent-child ratio. The kids don't get bullied or humiliated. They don't learn bad habits or learn to talk like teenagers when they're 6.
Well, anyway, the point is homeschoolers are not isolated unless they want to be.
Edited to add: The USA is estimated to have anywhere from one to over 2 million homeschoolers. This is VERY different from the roughly 20,000 homeschoolers in Australia.
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"Well, anyway, the point is homeschoolers are not isolated unless they want to be."
But when ANY parent wants to isolate children especially from the school or legal system, it should send up red flags.
Nixzmary lived and died in a two-bedroom apartment on Greene Avenue in Bedford-Stuyvesant with her mother, her stepfather and five half-siblings. At the trial, a portrait emerged of a poor family plunged into chaos after Ms. Santiago had a miscarriage in late November 2005, less than a year after giving birth to her sixth child. Ms. Santiago was depressed, and, according to many sources, blamed Nixzmary for the miscarriage and called her a devil.
The parents stopped sending the children to school regularly. Mr. Rodriguez lost his job as a security guard. He said he began to beat Nixzmary daily and to tie her to a chair with duct tape, rope and bungee cords because she was trying to harm her siblings and destroying the family’s precious food supplies.
Nixzmary’s injuries did not escape the notice of her teachers on the rare occasions she came to school. They notified the city’s Administration for Children’s Services, which sent workers to the family’s home several times in early January 2006 but failed to make meaningful contact with the family, in part because Mr. Rodriguez was unreceptive.
On Jan. 10, 2006, the welfare agency assigned case workers to visit the home after hours, but the case workers decided to wait till the morning.
Before dawn on Jan. 11, Ms. Santiago woke an upstairs neighbor and asked her to call 911, saying that Nixzmary had drowned. Paramedics found her dead on the floor, most of her rail-thin body covered with cuts and bruises and black eyes in various stages of healing. An autopsy revealed that she had died of bleeding on the brain caused by blows to the head.
In the hours that followed, Mr. Rodriguez gave a series of statements to detectives and prosecutors in which he said that on the last night of Nixzmary’s life, she got in trouble for taking a snack from the refrigerator — a yogurt or pudding — without permission and for jamming his computer printer with toys. He said he had pounded her with his hands, demanding to know why she was so destructive, and had shoved her head under a cold bathtub faucet.
When he was done, he said, he feared he had beaten her more seriously that night than he ever had before, that she looked “more pale than any other day,” would not meet his gaze and appeared “dazed out.” He says that after beating her, he left her moaning and went to his room, and that when his wife told him she was concerned that Nixzmary was having trouble breathing, he told her not to worry because “I thought it was just one of her scams.”
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I want to point this out in particular. Children are defenseless and at the mercy of the whims of adults. People need to understand what the last few hours of Nixzmary's life were like in order to specifically comprehend what 'child abuse' means.
Abuse is TOO WIDESPREAD TO BE IGNORED. http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/stats.htm
Composition of substantiated child abuse in 2000:
879,000 children were victims of child maltreatment.
Neglect ~ 63%
Physical ~ 19%
Sexual ~ 10%
Psychological ~ 8%
Simple calculation based on percent of population under 19, total population and number of documented cases of neglect or abuse indicates that 1% of children in the US are neglected or abused.
BTW, I WOULD conclude that isolating a child is suspicious behavior in and of itself and warrants investigation.
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As a point of clarification, when I spoke of homeschoolers wanting to be isolated, I didn't mean the creepy kind of isolation. There are different kinds of isolation and different degrees of isolation.
The Amish, for example, are purposely isolated. They have religious and social reasons for isolating themselves from society at large. However, their kids are not isolated from their community.
I know homeschoolers who, either because of personality or other preferences, choose to associate themselves with only a relatively small group of people. However, their kids still interact with the public, to shop for groceries or play in the park or take piano lessons. This is the type of isolation I meant.
The creepy kind of isolation, where kids almost never get to interact with the public, should raise red flags. Even those who have limited interactions (including attending public school) could be severely abused and neglected at home.
How do you tell the difference? It actually doesn't come from counting the number of interactions, though that certainly is a factor to keep in mind. A child who is not abused/neglected is happy and well-adjusted. A child who is unhappy is suffering some level of stress; an unhappy child is a red flag in and of itself.
If you ever meet an unhappy child, take the time to ask them what is wrong. The level and type of unhappiness will point the way to the problems at home. Now how many and what type of problems at home constitutes abuse--that is a judgment call that probably deserves its own thread.
If a child is never around enough for ANY adult to ask why he/she is unhappy, THAT is too much isolation and definitely deserves to be investigated.
Just my opinion.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Homeschoolers in America are far from being isolated. Of course, it depends on where one lives, and if one WANTS to be isolated. But in general, there are significant homeschooling communities everywhere. Many homeschoolers also get together to form co-ops, where they teach each other's kids in a pseudo-classroom setting.
Where we used to live, our co-op met once a week. We rented an empty office building, which was partitioned into "areas." Parents volunteered to prepare and lead activities in each area, anywhere from a first-time violin lesson to geography or science. There was always an arts and crafts area and a toddler's area for the younger siblings. Many homeschooling parents there were well educated (depending again on where one lives), so there was a lot of expertise to draw from.
so in other words you are setting up a type of school, a community school if you like, but something that mirrors that part of schools where expertise comes from more than one person alone and children learn in groups and resources are shared.
I have spoken to homeschoolers here and they have said the same thing about isolation, oh you send them to classes, set up group learning environments...well then, what's the point?
Quote:
True, there are less people in this community than the other. But there is something to be said for quality of community as well. My kids may play with other kids less frequently, in general, but when she does play with them, the interactions are well supervised by a very small parent-child ratio. The kids don't get bullied or humiliated. They don't learn bad habits or learn to talk like teenagers when they're 6.
see now this is the control aspect of homeschooling that doesn't appeal to me. one of the most interesting things about sending my son to school is watching him choose his own friendship group and learn how to handle conflict without constant parental/adult intervention. Now that isn't appropriate when a kid is 3, but as the next few years roll by they need to learn those on their own, IMO. That's not to say bullying needs to be tolerated, btw, but that adults don't need to constantly watch and intervene with primary age children.
And has for learning bad habits, meh! Unless you are talking about your 7 year old child smoking weed, and I assume you are not, I'd say bad habits does not a bad child make. They learn, test things out, test out their parents reactions to things they pick up at school and elsewhere, both good and bad but in the end its the family life and how they have been/are being parented will be the main influence on any child.
Part of parenting is letting go of parental control bit by bit and enabling children grow into autonomous beings.
Quote:
Edited to add: The USA is estimated to have anywhere from one to over 2 million homeschoolers. This is VERY different from the roughly 20,000 homeschoolers in Australia.
True, its not as big here, maybe there are more educational options. Maybe the public system doesn't suck quite as much. But remember you are talking about a significantly smaller population (20 million) compared to???? whatever hundreds of millions you have in the US.
My understanding is that homeschoolers can be involved in homeschool communities here.
When I talk about isolation, I'm talking about what i would miss. School forms a big part of our life, we mix ( as a family) with a lot of other families from the school, and as I said, are involved with the school. I'd really miss that and it would feel strange to just not have that in our life and I find it hard to imagine why others wouldn't want something like that either.
I'd imagine I'll probably feel different come secondary school days. Speak to you then.
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Quote:The main difference between school and homeschool is who manages the child's education. You can hire someone else to choose the curriculum and activities, or you can do it yourself. Parents who are ultimately responsible the curriculum can tailor it to the child's needs in a way that is not possible in a school setting.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
...well then, what's the point?
Plus, co-ops are very different from school. One, they meet less frequently, once or twice a week, leaving a lot of free time for other types of learning. Two, co-op "classes" are not compulsory. My daughter has chosen to spend all day at the arts and crafts station instead of attending any of the classes offered. Three, co-ops involve children of all ages in their classes--learning with kids of different ages and abilities is a uniquely different environment than that of schools. The point is, homeschool kids can get a sense of community and group learning, without having it be ALL they have.
Quote:Homeschool parents can choose not to intervene. But the ability to intervene is always there. That is the beauty of homeschooling--more choices and more flexibility. You can exert as much control as you want.
one of the most interesting things about sending my son to school is watching him choose his own friendship group and learn how to handle conflict without constant parental/adult intervention.
Now I am not saying homeschooling is generally better than schooling. I am saying it is better in certain areas, such as individualization. I am also saying the benefits does not necessarily come with the cost of isolation and overcontrol, as some people imagine. There are potential downsides to homeschooling, as there are with schooling. But isolation and overcontrol aren't them.
Quote:This depends on the school. Some schools have primary age children smoking and drinking. Others don't. Some schools have very horrible and serious problems with bullying. Others don't. I talked to a mom once whose 6 year old boy was raped in the school lunchroom by a 12 year old. Some schools have insufficient supervision for clearly inappropriate behavior; others don't.
And has for learning bad habits, meh!
Quote:Why do you say that as if homeschooling parents don't know this? I don't want you to be under the mistaken impression that homeschooled children are led around on leashes by control freaks. I mean, some parents are control freaks, whether their children are in school or homeschool. But most parents are regular folk like you and me who want to raise their kids to be independent and well-adjusted.
Part of parenting is letting go of parental control bit by bit and enabling children grow into autonomous beings.
Quote:Homeschooling families can mix with other homeschooling families in very much the same way. I guess, I am wondering why you would assume they don't have exactly the same thing in their lives.
When I talk about isolation, I'm talking about what i would miss. School forms a big part of our life, we mix ( as a family) with a lot of other families from the school, and as I said, are involved with the school. I'd really miss that and it would feel strange to just not have that in our life and I find it hard to imagine why others wouldn't want something like that either.
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An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't.
-- Anatole France
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I'm sure everyone's seen this by now ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080327/ap_on_re_us/daughter_s_death_praye
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Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
She had probably been ill for about a month ...
The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.
She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.
"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."
Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said. (what the hell does THAT mean?)
Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.
But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.
Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
So where was the safety net for this girl ? She was isolated from the medical system and school system, the 'community' (whatever that is) didn't step in and the relatives did everything they legally could to help. And yet she is dead b/c some severely misled parents tried to live in a fantasy land. So - do I just chalk this up to 'parent's rights' ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Sure, why not? Everybody else does!
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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The other day I heard about a traffic accident. One driver was doing the speed limit, had his seatbelt on, and was not following the car in front too closely. Another driver going the opposite direction feel asleep at the wheel, crossed the center line, and collided head-on with the first driver killing him instantly. Should we ban all driving because someone died while following all the rules?
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Your post makes absolutely no sense.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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The other day I heard about a traffic accident. One driver was doing the speed limit, had his seatbelt on, and was not following the car in front too closely. Another driver going the opposite direction feel asleep at the wheel.
Other drivers beeped their horns as the asleep driveer weaved all over the road. Pedestrians shouted and waved their arms, trying to wake him up. Unfortunately the driver didn't wake up, and collided head-on with the first driver killing him instantly.
When asked about the accident, the asleep driver said he had done the best he could, given that he didn't believe that humans actually needed sleep, and growled that it was nobody's else's business but his own, that they shouldn't be interfering with his right to drive.
"And thanks for playing Really Bad Analogies!"
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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