Real World Event Discussions

Loyalty to the State

POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Monday, March 31, 2008 03:34
VIEWED: 19263
PAGE 18 of 27

RUE

Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:56 AM

"I don't think you can honestly make a consistent argument that government eliminates more suffering than it causes."

In how many ways ? Water treatment, sewage treatment, street-sweeping, the dreaded vaccinations - oh yeah - roads, public hospitals and medical care, research, job-safety regulations, environmental protection, just to name a few. And also education available to anyone who can't afford private education and can't do the job themselves.

"You haven't tried, so maybe you agree."

I didn't realize that was the question. And really, it isn't. But since you insist, you have your answer.

"You, and Signy, also haven't made any attempt to address the rather obvious idiocy of institutional education - "

Where do MOST children learn to read and figure ? And how does that make institutional education 'idiocy' ?

" - which is what you're holding up as the only honorable way to curb child abuse."

I think I've made a case for government intervention in general, not just via education. See I WOULD draw the line at government as safety net. But you apparently can't agree to any line, not even in cases of abuse.

"Cause, you know, anyone who disagrees burns babies alive and such."

Oh please, don't take it so personally. I don't think you personally would do such a thing, and never said so, or even implied it. I think your stance is more like this - it's not that I agree with beating my child to death, but I'll defend to the death your right to do it.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, March 15, 2008 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Brings to mind a conversation I had with a friend of mine almost 20 years ago. It was about higher education and the fact that in every country it's rationed in some way. In the UK at the time the government paid tuition but only if you passed a set of standardised tests to get into university. In the US entry requirements for university was lower but candidates tended to be self selecting because of the need to pay tuition.

Anyway, my friend said in effect that societies effectively limit access to higher education because in the end it still needs people to empty dustbins and repair sewers. If tomorrow every child's true potential could be realised who would do society's dirty jobs?

well what do we have the developing countries for?

seriously, the shitdigging jobs are becoming few and far between in the west. Dustbin men are no more in my neck of the woods. There's a man operating a truck that I'll bet required a special licence to operate. I'm sure I couldn't do it.

Factories - hmmm, not so much. Going offshore more and more to places with cheaper labour, and the ones that are left,often operate highly technical machinery.

Farming - highly mechanised. picking/harvesting/rounding up herds...all use complex machinery. Farms can be multi million dollar business and enormously complex to run.

I've worked in employment placement, believe me, in this country at least if you don't have an education you are screwed.

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 15, 2008 10:34 AM

Quote:
The government IS scarier than any one parent

Unless you're the child of that parent. Sarge, you have just said yourself in so many ways what I said about you from the very beginning: You're so wrapped up in control issues that you really don't give a shit what happens to anyone, children included.

Quote:
I don't think you can honestly make a consistent argument that government eliminates more suffering than it causes. You haven't tried, so maybe you agree.

Well, now if THAT isn't an effing desperate strawman! Helloooooo.... Maybe that wasn't the topic of this thread? Meet me in another thread, and I'll be happy to exchange hundreds of posts on the topic.

Quote:
You, and Signy, also haven't made any attempt to address the rather obvious idiocy of institutional education - which is what you're holding up as the only honorable way to curb child abuse.

But education...!

Shades of But Clinton...! I know that a lot of things are wrong with education, and a lot of things should be done to fix it. But that wasn't the topic of THIS thread, was it? There are also a lot of abusive parents out there, it's really really common.... probably AS common as bad school experiences but much MUCH more devastating. But you haven't addressed that, have you?

Because in your mind, nothing bad happens except because of government. I could go on and on, but I can't force insight so this will be a good time to stop.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

SERGEANTX

Saturday, March 15, 2008 2:10 PM

Frem, I wish I had your sense of timing. I always seem to stay at the party for one too many drinks.

I'll leave this thread to you Signym, wherein you can discuss the universal libertarian hatred of children.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 16, 2008 6:54 AM

So, let me restate my issues with homeschooling:

1) Academic. Solved using Frem-style proposal.

2) Abuse. Some parents intent on abuse will use "homeschooling" as a way to isolate their children from view. Now, I don't lay this at the feet of homeschooling, nor have I suggested it is commonplace, but I DO see it as an unintended side effect.

I'd like to see this issue solved. I think there are far too many abusive parents, and fewer - but still too many- who "disappear" their children from public view. And since I came up with real examples... and could come up with LOTS more... it's not as if this is a theoretical concern. So people who propose homeschooling should either (a) come up with a solution to this unintended side effect or (b) come up with statistics that this isn't a big enough problem to "worry about". Since nobody has come up with either, it seems that y'all lack the intellectual honesty to even THINK about this issue.
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Let's party like it's 1929.

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 16, 2008 7:31 AM

THIS IS FROM THE PA HOMESCHOOLER'S ASSN:

Quote:
On the other hand, there are increasing reports of homeschool child abuse in the media. It all started in October 2003 when CBS news aired a two-part series about the “dark side” of homeschooling. The Oct. 13 episode discussed a case in AZ in which an abused 14-year-old homeschooler killed himself and his two siblings while the Oct. 14 show discussed homeschool child abuse cases and murders in TX, KS, and NC....

Then three local Akron area incidents involving child abuse of homeschooled children (including starving homeschooled children found wandering in Akron after they escaped from a closet where they weremade to eat from a cat litter box) led two writers for the Akron Beacon Journal to conduct a systematic search of newspaper articles to see if such incidents were isolated. Since child abuse cases are seldom reported in the media, they instead examined murders and found that a relatively high proportion of homeschooled children had been murdered by their parents in recent years. In November 2004, they published their findings.

...
The Florida Story

The first national story of 2005 began on February 4 when homeschool parents Jim and Linda Dollar fled Florida after their child abuse was discovered. Governor Jeb Bush told the press, “I hope they find them, and I hope that they put them away for a long, long time. It’s disgusting.” But if you would just listen to the Dollars talk, you would think that they were loving parents. For example, in a 1995 questionnaire, Linda wrote, “We have five adopted children and have seen what we can do to help those less fortunate, we can see so many children who need special care, love and an opportunity to be part of a warm, loving, caring home atmosphere.” Despite their talk, their child abuse was chillingly cold. Here is a summary, from the February 5 Tampa Tribune of the torture and starvation that five of their children allegedly endured:

"Two parents arrested Friday near Salt Lake City are accused of using cattle prods, pliers, vises and starvation to torture five of their seven children. Their adopted 16-year-old son weighed 59 pounds when hospitalized Jan. 21 in Citrus County, which started an investigation, officials said. Twin boys, 14, subsequently were found to weigh 36 and 38 pounds. Two girls, 13 and 12, also were severely undernourished.... “The twins were particularly shocking,” said sheriff´s spokeswoman Gail Tierney. “The pictures were reminiscent of something you would have seen at Auschwitz.”

Florida law gives families three homeschooling options: evaluations by a certified teacher, testing by a certified teacher, or enrollment in an umbrella school. The Dollars complied with Florida law by enrolling in an umbrella school that advertised itself as “non-intrusive.” According to the Tampa Tribune, Barbara Dunlop, administrator of the umbrella school that was supposed to be supervising the Dollars, noticed that the children were abnormally small when she tested them three years ago: The adopted children of John and Linda Dollar appeared abnormally small during academic testing conducted nearly three years ago at a Lutz private Christian school. Barbara Dunlop, 51, administrator of Tampa Educational Academy of Christian Heritage Inc., said via e-mail Friday that she had noticed “some of the children were very small. The mother explained that they had been adopted and came from a family of small stature.”

Unfortunately, Dunlop failed to act upon her observation, perhaps because she still believed the myth that only parents who love their children homeschool them. She didn´t yet understand that there is a small group of parents who homeschool children that they hate in order to better control them and better hide the abuse. If she had acted upon her observation, the abuse of these children could have been ended three years earlier.

The Arizona Story
An underweight 14-year-old Arizona girl escaped from her home after allegedly being locked in her room for 15

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CANTTAKESKY

Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I talked about choices. You don't have alternatives to mainstream school? I'm pretty sure there are waldorf, montesorri, steiner and other independent schools in the US.

Rich people have choices. Public schools get the sort of teachers I was talking about.

Quote:

but you yourself wrote at some length on how you don't need to be expert in any particular subject to teach.

That's right. My problem with teachers vs. parents is twofold.

1. Parents have to have special skills/resources to offer, such as the time to learn with the child, the ability to support a child-led and spontaneous education, and/or an intense passion about the child's welfare. Teachers in schools either don't have those skills, or don't have those types of resources. So they SHOULD have something else to offer, like subject expertise, but they don't. So what DO they have to offer, besides a glorified babysitting service?

2. Teachers are the first to criticize homeschoolers are insufficiently qualified to teach. My point was defensive, pointing out that teachers living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. If they actually had any qualifications themselves, I would take their criticisms more seriously.

Quote:
Good grief, would it be too much if kids just actually had to cope with existing in an imperfect world where every single thing wasn't specially tailored to their individual needs?????

Do you have children of your own? When your child has problems at school because of the teachers, do you tell your kid to just suck it up and "cope with existing in an imperfect world where every single thing wasn't specially tailored to their individual needs?" Do you solve your kid's educational problems by saying, "Kid, you don't fit in? Get used to it. You can't expect the world to revolve around you."

And to set things straight, homeschooling parents aren't asking teachers to tailor every single little thing to their kids' needs. They understand the school system has limitations, so they are solving the problem by withdrawing their children from a limited system to find a better fit.

Quote:

A few of you have talked about your crappy experiences at school, well did you ever think that you are different to your child, that their school experience may not actually be yours???

I had a great time at school. Straight A student, valecdictorian, teacher's pet and all. My daughter, however, begged me every day of her one month in a private school to PLEASE don't send her back. It was torture for her. So yes, I am aware that my child's experience may not actually be mine.

CANTTAKESKY

Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
1) Academic. Solved using Frem-style proposal.

I don't agree with Frem's proposal. I object to any type of assessment that is knowledge based instead of effort based. Knowledge based assessements does not leave very much room for kids with learning and other disabilities. For example, Sig, how does your daughter do on standardized tests? I'm not asking to be mean or anything--just pointing out that many many parents homeschool precisely because their kids don't do well academically. Academic assessments aren't going to show their educational progress well.

Quote:

2) Abuse. Some parents intent on abuse will use "homeschooling" as a way to isolate their children from view.

This goes without saying, Sig. Abuse is a crime. Criminals usually hide their crimes. So yeah, locking their kids in a closet and calling it homeschooling is their way of hiding.

I've already proposed a solution, but your response is "Communities don't exist." Well, no shit, sherlock. Instead of creating a law to blah-blah-blah, create a community instead. It will be more effective, be more efficient, and be less oppressive.

Child abuse is ugly. Both I and my brother were physically and emotionally abused as children--while both attending school and doing absolutely fantastic in it. So again, I say, routine monitoring is not the solution to child abuse. Criminals intent on child abuse are experts at hiding, sometimes in plain sight, sometimes camouflaged. It doesn't matter what kind of law you pass--criminals are experts are getting around the law. If you don't believe me, ask Frem.

What people and kids NEED, and what they lack, are communities. They need their very own monkeysphere of folks who care for them, folks who aren't afraid to pour in some sweat and get involved.

Law is a prefabricated decision. In extreme cases, it is useful because it streamlines the response in black-and-white cases. But most child abuse cases are shades of gray that may not fit well with a prefabricated outcome. The best thing for the KIDS is involvement from people who know them, care about them, and can make good judgments about what they need. People from their community.

People used to live with extended families. Parents act up, and aunts and uncles and grandpas and cousins stepped in. They corrected the offenders and empowered the children. Short of that, there were neighbors. We don't have that anymore. I am saying the true solution to child abuse is not to draft yet another bill, but to bring community back.

It is a lot more work, but it will yield better and more lasting results. You get what you pay for.

And severe child abuse is still a crime. You treat it as any other crime. Call in suspicious activities, investigate them, and prosecute when you find sufficient evidence. You see a kid in your neighborhood who NEVER comes out of his house? THAT IS SUSPICIOUS. Call it in. That is it. You don't need to introduce new legislation to do that.

CANTTAKESKY

Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
it seems that y'all lack the intellectual honesty to even THINK about this issue.

Hey, before you start on intellectual honesty, you never answered MY question. So you know, glass houses and stones, and black kettles and pots.

So how about you give it a whirl? I even listed all possible answers, just like you.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Monday, March 17, 2008 12:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
What people and kids NEED, and what they lack, are communities. They need their very own monkeysphere of folks who care for them, folks who aren't afraid to pour in some sweat and get involved.

And the children who are squirreled away from their community and abused at home are left to pure happenstance. Their lives are so unimportant that their welfare should be left to a mistake to discover them? Honestly, if sadistic parents are abusing children whom they have closed them away in the basement closet, how does the community discover them? How many years must a child endure this kind of abuse before a mistake finally reveals them to passersby? I’m all for parent’s rights. And I believe that a loving parent will provide for a child orders of magnitude better then the state is likely too, but an unloving parent will likewise do far more harm to a child. Shouldn’t the right of a child not to be subjected to the will of a sadistic abusive parent be at least something we consider? Why does it have to be so unimportant that we simply toss it out as something to be inadvertently happened upon?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero