Why they speak Chinese... I think...

POSTED BY: Gambit3
UPDATED: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:40
VIEWED: 7955
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THEGN

Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:11 PM

I don't know for sure if you can really call the Jews a continuously existing culture. The Jews that are discussed in the later biblical age seem to have begun to vanish by the end of the 2nd century CE. There is no real evidence to suggest that that culture has ever re-emerged. So essentially, the Jews that we know from the Bible disappeared before the fall of the Roman Empire. Since then, Judaism has been defined as a religious aspect of other cultures. So it depends, largely, on what your qualifications are for a "culture." Certainly, Judaism can be called a culture, but I don't think it can be compared as a culture in the same way the Chinese culture is one.

Yiddish is a good example of what I mean. Except for religious text, Hebrew, until 1948, was a dead language. Yiddish is not Hebrew, but a dialect of German. And the evolution of the German language shares no cultural link with the Hebrew language. They are culturally unrelated. Essentially, we are not talking about a distinct Jewish culture but a German culture that happens to be Jewish. The same is true of other Jewish peoples around the world.

Chinese share nosuch diversity. I beleive, one can related the Xia Dynasty (2100 BCE) to the current culture in both historical chronology and language.

But the Jewish religion is the 2nd oldest existing religion, and it's safe to say that it will still be around in 500 years.

China is the oldest continuously existing state, and it likely will still be around in 500 years.

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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

GATORMARC

Thursday, October 17, 2002 1:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
It also has no "American" attached to it. In the USofA they have no native language, they swiped it from the old British Empire, like most of the other ex-colonies. ;->

What are you talking about? Those of us here in the states don't speak English! We speak 'Merican!

DARKANGELSLAYER

Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:36 PM

Native American languages are native languages from the US, and possibly Hawaiian.

Actually in other countries they learn English English, not American English, and English is big in India cuz India used to be a British colony, so it's not like most people in the world speak english cuz of the US, or not only because of the US.

I remember reading somewhere that English is the most spoken language in the world, and Chinese second? So it makes sense that they'll dominate 500 years from now.

THEGN

Thursday, October 17, 2002 11:26 PM

The British brought English to the world, and the Americans kept it there.

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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

ROBERTSPARLING

Thursday, October 17, 2002 11:39 PM

Well, it seems that we're all forgetting an important aspect of the series, and how it relates to the charaters' habit of muttering in Chinese: that pesky Alliance/Independents Civil War.

In war, proabably the most important commodity is intelligence. Knowing what your enemy is going to do bwfore he does it, means you win. Communication between battalions and the like are also important. So if the Alliance is comprised of the remenants of China and the US, all their communications would be in either English or Chinese. The Independents would have to know both languages to accurately counter the Alliance. They would also have to know both languages to do any code-breaking of Alliance encrypted communications.

So, knowing both languages would be essential to Mal nad Zoe. But now you're asking "What about that lovable galout Jayne, and the rest of the crew?" Oh man, do I have some answers.

First, Simon and River both grew up in Alliance space, so they will undoubtably know both languages, they being a part of their former gov't.

Inara, a prominent companion, is a woman of training, etiquette and intellect. I'm sure that in being a companion, she is taught both languages, as well as a slew of others to better serve her in her role as a courtesan.

Jayne, Wash, Kaylee and Book are harder to pin down, but not impossible. Wash said he went to flight school in the thrid ep, right? Would he be able to get a job flying anything reputable without an Alliance-made liscense? I doubt it. So he was probably at least familiar with both languages, if not as fluent as others.

Book's a preacher, looking to save the heathens. How do you bring the "word of the lord" to the masses when the culture is multi-lingual? Easy, he knows more than one language. Let's here it for the Christian need to proseletize!

Jayne said he "didn't fight in no war" in The Heist. Which excludes him from the War theory. But doesn't he seem like someone who played both sides against the middle? We assume he's a mercenary, but what do you do if you can't understand what language your boss-of-the-week is speaking? Learn the language.

Kaylee is the only one that really troubles me. She could have picked up all her engineering skills working on ships without really needing to pick up Chinese. I can only assume she learned it from various former crewmates.

And I'm not sure everyone is exactly fluent in Chinese. They mostly appear to swear or jibe each other with it, not compose spontaneous haikus.

That's all from me

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REXRAYGUN

Friday, October 18, 2002 7:46 AM

I think another view of things might be that, whle the characters would be bilingual, each of their native communities would probably have a preferred language. In Canada, both French and English are tought, and signs are in both languages, and that seems to be the case in Firefly too.

Living in South Texas for most of my life, I speak more than a smattering of Spanish, yet understand a lot more than I speak. Not to mention that my accent, though reportedly pretty good, is probably quite noticable to a native speaker, and I was surrounded by the language. If you want to get a fair idea of these multicultural linguistics, rent Lone Star. It's a great movie and it really gives you a feel for the benefits as well as the difficulties, of multiculturalization. I would imagine the same thing might occur with English- and Chinese-speaking populations forced into close proximity for survival urposes.

I see a lot of complaints about the characters' pronunciation of Chinese. Imagine how bad one's accent would be if they were from the midwest, trying to speak Spanish. I don't care what they show on Smallville, the midwest is not the breadbasket of cultural pluralism! ;)

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

REXRAYGUN

Friday, October 18, 2002 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
I don't know for sure if you can really call the Jews a continuously existing culture. The Jews that are discussed in the later biblical age seem to have begun to vanish by the end of the 2nd century CE. There is no real evidence to suggest that that culture has ever re-emerged. So essentially, the Jews that we know from the Bible disappeared before the fall of the Roman Empire. Since then, Judaism has been defined as a religious aspect of other cultures. So it depends, largely, on what your qualifications are for a "culture." Certainly, Judaism can be called a culture, but I don't think it can be compared as a culture in the same way the Chinese culture is one.

Yiddish is a good example of what I mean. Except for religious text, Hebrew, until 1948, was a dead language. Yiddish is not Hebrew, but a dialect of German. And the evolution of the German language shares no cultural link with the Hebrew language. They are culturally unrelated. Essentially, we are not talking about a distinct Jewish culture but a German culture that happens to be Jewish. The same is true of other Jewish peoples around the world.

I think you may be mistaking culture for country. Jews have been a continuous culture, even apart from religion, for thousands of years. With very few exceptions, Jews were not allowed to assimilate, not that they would probably choose to do so completely. Yiddish is a case in point. Yes, Yiddish is taken from Middle German, but it is not the same. You are quite mistaken in believing for an instant that Yiddish culture is even close to German culture.

Yiddish has different inflection, phrasing, concepts, etc. It is a truly Jewish language that, though once thought to be dying out, has recently begun to make a resurgence. There are Yiddish newspapers and brilliant Yiddish theater. Its authors have even won the nobel prizee for literature. It has influenced the American English, especially in areas of high Jewish concentration, such as New York, immensely. Hebrew was the language of the fathers, while Yiddish was the mame loshen (mother's language) spoken in the home.

In addition, Jews were generally separated into their own communities, by force or by choice, and governed by Talmudic law. Every Jew, both before and since the diaspora, has been intrinsically llinked to every other Jew, by a common culture and rituals, such as the breaking of bread on Shabbat. Though the Jewish religion may have drastically changed since the second burning of the temple of Jerusalem and the subsequent diaspora, the Jewish culture has continued, unhalted.

Just my dos pesos,

Rex!

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Friday, October 18, 2002 9:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RobertSparling:
Wash said he went to flight school in the thrid ep, right? Would he be able to get a job flying anything reputable without an Alliance-made liscense? I doubt it. So he was probably at least familiar with both languages, if not as fluent as others.

As it is now, to be a pilot, you must be able to read, write, speak, and understand the English language. Every avaition-related radio communication in the world MUST be done in English, no matter what country you are in.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

TECHBOY

Sunday, October 20, 2002 6:59 AM

Quote:

And I'm not sure everyone is exactly fluent in Chinese. They mostly appear to swear or jibe each other with it, not compose spontaneous haikus.

That and haikus are Japanese.

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SORAYA

Sunday, October 20, 2002 4:54 PM

Well, I read Joss' interview with SciFi so I know how the Chinese came to be in FIREFLY. But actually, my theory as to why they all speak Chinese still differs.

The most revealing part about their use of Chinese is the SITUATIONS in which the characters use it. It's mostly in moments of high emotional distress that they switch tongue - a pattern you usually see in people who don't use their mother tongue in every day life. Only when the subconsiousness blurts something out (as in "Our Mrs Reynolds" when Jayne confronts Mal with "Vera" and Mal finally realizes this *won't* be a shoot-out) they return to the language grew up with. Being a German who speaks English most of the times, I know what I'm talking about :-) (been there, done that).

So, my very personal (already dis-proven) opinion would be that they all grew up with Chinese being the first language... and English only coming later (bi-lingual ed from very small age).

Anyone in on this?

- Soraya

Mal: "You got the right, same as anyone, to live and try to kill people. You know, people that are... it's a dumb planet!"

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